quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

Originally posted in the article that BamaJeepster posted:


Taylor is now trying to turn his life around...

Oh God, not this shit again. Maybe he just needs a hug.

What's your problem with this? They're not talking about a felon killed in the act of another felony. They're talking about a felon who is actually doing something to turn his life around in a positive manner. How else would you characterize it?

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Yeah, at the end of it, I still had several thoughts I was in the process of typing, but I arrived at this conclusion as I was typing it out, and posted.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by SpinZone:
We've all seen videos where 2 or 3 cops are yelling different commands at the same time. "Don't move", "put your hands up", "get down on the ground". When you drop your hands to get down on the ground you get shot by the cop who said to put your hands up because you reached for your waistband. I'm not suggesting that this was the case here, but I think in some high stress situations it may be a lot harder then you make it out to be.

This.

I don't hear all that well when a bunch of folks are shouting stuff incoherently (seems to be SOP) rather than clearly saying what they'd like you to do. If this ever happens here, the odds I won't know what at least one of them wants me to do are pretty high.

One of the stupidest thing I've heard shouted in those videos is 'Show me your hands'. Way too many words, and hands can be shown while they are doing a lot of things other than being put up slowly...how many of those other things would look threatening enough to get you shot?

Whatever happened to the simple, "Hands Up!" or "Freeze!" ?

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
One of the stupidest thing I've heard shouted in those videos is 'Show me your hands'.

That I definitely agree with. Unfortunately, it has become ingrained as copspeak among most police officers as the thing to say even when someone is standing in plain view with both hands clearly visible. In in my classes I try to explain why it’s a poor command under any circumstances, but I’ve had little success in changing anyone’s mind about the matter.

“Freeze,” though, is also copspeak, and old teevee copspeak at that. Water freezes; if we want someone to not move, then we should say … “Don’t move!” After someone is complying with the don’t move command, then “raise your hands” may be appropriate.

In this incident, though, I did not hear any simultaneous and conflicting commands; one was unclear, but that’s all I heard worthy of criticism before the shot. As I’ve asked before, though, if anyone is aware of other videos, I’d be very interested in their links.

quote:

Originally posted by Herknav:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Yeah, at the end of it, I still had several thoughts I was in the process of typing, but I arrived at this conclusion as I was typing it out, and posted.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining it to me.

Your most welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
One of the stupidest thing I've heard shouted in those videos is 'Show me your hands'.

That I definitely agree with. Unfortunately, it has become ingrained as copspeak among most police officers as the thing to say even when someone is standing in plain view with both hands clearly visible. In in my classes I try to explain why it’s a poor command under any circumstances, but I’ve had little success in changing anyone’s mind about the matter.

“Freeze,” though, is also copspeak, and old teevee copspeak at that. Water freezes; if we want someone to not move, then we should say … “Don’t move!” After someone is complying with the don’t move command, then “raise your hands” may be appropriate.

In this incident, though, I did not hear any simultaneous and conflicting commands; one was unclear, but that’s all I heard worthy of criticism before the shot. As I’ve asked before, though, if anyone is aware of other videos, I’d be very interested in their links.

When I read about the way LEOs surrounded the victim, I could see how this could happen.

First, the position of the LEOs: if you are the victim facing south, with LEOs positioned to your South (with the Southern officer giving commands), West, and East, the western officer is not going to have the easiest time seeing your left hand, and the same will be true of the eastern officer trying to see your right hand. "Show me your hands" is a poor command under these circumstances. You're dealing with a possibly groggy person yanked out of bed at 3AM, staring at disorienting bright lights. He may not be lucid enough to realize the geometry problem that he's inadvertently become a part of: "Well, if I stand at a 45 degree angle, roughly Southwest facing, or Southeast facing orientation, then officers on all three sides will be able to see my hands." The victim may not have realized that there were officers on three sides of him so he may not have had the requisite information to even begin to figure out how to expose his hands on three sides.

The video is useless in this regard, but we don't know why he put his hands down. He is issued the "Walk this way" command when he's shot.

Most people do not walk naturally with their hands in the air. I suspect that when he was issued the "walk this way" command he complied by reverting to his natural walking pose, which is hands down by the thighs. He may have realized at the last moment that this was a bad idea, and sought to immediately comply by putting his hands back up in the air (again, were're dealing with someone who is disoriented).

Before we jump on the victim for not following commands, let's examine a different command: "Turn around." For the sake of argument, this command is being given so that officers can see if the suspect has a pistol gangsta stuffed buttcrack style into the waistband of his pants.

When the subject hears the "turn around" command, should he A, turn 180 degrees? B: 360 degrees? Or C, he keep turning perpetually in 360 degree revolutions till he's given another command?

C is probably the minority answer, but it also reveals an issue with the commands themselves, which are not phrased as standing orders. So, if "turn around" is not a command to continue spinning around in a circle till ordered otherwise, why would "show me your hands" or "hands up" be interpreted as "keep your hands in the air till I tell you to do otherwise?" While this seems to be a petty nuance, it's not when you consider that the next command is "walk this way." Does "walk this way" mean I can put my hands down and start walking?

Because if that's what the victim momentarily assumed, that is the point where he was shot by a flanking officer who could not see his hands.

quote:

Originally posted by LDD:
While this seems to be a petty nuance, it's not when you consider that the next command is "walk this way." Does "walk this way" mean I can put my hands down and start walking?

Excellent point.

Wouldn't it just be easier to not shoot until you see a gun?

Why worry about what command is given, how it's given, if the person can hear, if the person speaks English, etc? What difference would it have made had this man walked out on his porch and started doing jumping jacks?

He didn't have a gun. He wasn't a threat. Nothing he did, or didn't do, made a bit of difference to the reality of the situation. See a gun aiming in your direction, shoot. No gun, don't shoot.

None of the other cops pulled the trigger, implying that they didn't feel at risk 30 yards out behind cover with rifles....

It's absurd to shoot at the slightest provocation in every situation. Different situations deserve different levels of reaction - having distance and massive tactical advantage while being behind cover is one of those times where the level of reaction should be restrained.

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
None of the other cops pulled the trigger, implying that they didn't feel at risk 30 yards out behind cover with rifles....

Where did you get the 30 yards positioning information? Was it released recently?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
None of the other cops pulled the trigger, implying that they didn't feel at risk 30 yards out behind cover with rifles....

Where did you get the 30 yards positioning information? Was it released recently?

The video with the shot fired, shows the distance.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:...
He didn't have a gun. He wasn't a threat. Nothing he did, or didn't do, made a bit of difference to the reality of the situation. See a gun aiming in your direction, shoot. No gun, don't shoot.

The fake 911 call the caller referenced that he was considering pouring gas around the house and burning it down with the hostages in it. So, police aren't looking for a gun, a bic lighter would do the job. That is the problem with this incident, cop hesitates, guy torches the house and burns the family, everyone is crying, "why didn't the cops shoot him"?

Cops were in a no-win situation and the fucker that called knew exactly that, why he mentioned the gas to the operator and then hung up.

victims family: $650,000.00 per year for ten years

officer: never work in L.e. again. five years of weekends in jail

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Another question I hope someone who has followed this more closely will be able to answer:
Was the video that was released of the incident and linked in the first post from the body camera of the officer who fired the shot at the victim, or was it from the camera of a different officer? The assumption from the beginning was that it was from the camera of the officer who fired the shot, but later I got the impression that that may not have been the case.

The body cam footage looks like it is from the cop to the right of the shooter. Look at the video on page 1.
Don't look at the guy who was shot, like I did, look to the lower left at the officer using the red p/u for cover.
It looks like he is the one who fired.

----

Quoted from Bamajeepster's post:
“Bomb threats are more fun and cooler than swats in my opinion and I should have just stuck to that,” SWAuTistic said. “But I began making $ doing some swat requests.”

This fucking piece of shit needs to hang himself in his cell. I can only hope that it is the result of X3 daily beatings, stabbings and rapes from other inmates.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
victims family: $650,000.00 per year for ten years...

Most likely, with local Taxpayers footing the bill.

quote:

Most likely, with local Taxpayers footing the bill.

and the police chief taking a crap load of heat , until he resigns

quote:

Where did you get the 30 yards positioning information? Was it released recently?

Figure 65' width of the street, plus 20' for sidewalk up to the front door of the deceased. Add 20' for sidewalk plus 15' of driveway. Approximately 35 yards regardless of camera lens.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
None of the other cops pulled the trigger, implying that they didn't feel at risk 30 yards out behind cover with rifles....

Where did you get the 30 yards positioning information? Was it released recently?

The video with the shot fired, shows the distance.

The estimate may be good, but once again, I see nothing in or around the video that gave a distance, 30 yards or anything else. Again, what am I missing?

quote:

The estimate may be good, but once again, I see nothing in or around the video that gave a distance, 30 yards or anything else. Again, what am I missing?

I think you are correct, there are no numbers mentioned or shown on the video. LA streets tend to be quite wide, and this one appears to be at least average for that city.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:

quote:

The estimate may be good, but once again, I see nothing in or around the video that gave a distance, 30 yards or anything else. Again, what am I missing?

I think you are correct, there are no numbers mentioned or shown on the video. LA streets tend to be quite wide, and this one appears to be at least average for that city.

Video was in Wichita, KS.

I'm guesstimating based on the relative size of objects at various points in the scene.

Length of the pickup, sidewalk, four lane street, sidewalk, steps to porch.