quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Of course you are right, Arc. It is a bad thought. I Don't want SIGforum tarnished in the slightest. I hope I would not have made such a post. I still think Illegal aliens was only an example, but see how easily it could be read the other way. Now, if it is ugly for illegal aliens then........

Considering the current political climate, erring on the side of not encouraging either simply trolls, all the way to members being doxed or DDOS, it's best to just steer away from saying things where your meaning is that unclear.

Considering also the typical fate of a thread here with "abortion" in title, we should keep an even keel.

Words of wisdom, brother, which is one of your strong characteristics that I admire.

Now if I could pass along some other words of wisdom given to me via personal inspiration. Years ago I heard a description of an abortion procedure that horrified me so that I had to pull my car over and sob literally for those I believed helpless and innocent. If/then logical sequences raced through my mind and became conflicted between moral directives. Over time I felt myself favoring defense of the innocent and within a few months frantic to do something.

Then one day in a moment of clarity, I sensed a voice that told me, "Fuster, this battle is not yours to fight. These children are not lost from me. They are with me. Their lives, though brief, are not in vain and their suffering is over forever......yours, on the other hand endures. Have peace and know that when this is all over, all will be made right." This may sound hokey to some, but sure as I write them, these words were spoken to me as I stood in my shop with my head hung low.

I have since found peace in horror understanding that this life is only part of a greater existence and purpose. I still declare the truth as I understand it, but do so in peace and absent panic and anger. I believe there is condemnation waiting for those who kill the innocent and greater still for those who compel the innocent to participate in atrocity, in this case through compulsory taxes. As such, I feel greater sorrow for the guilty than the innocent.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
So do I but MOST women want safe legal abortion available for those who want one.

There are no safe abortions. In every case the baby dies.
What about the father? His wants don't matter?
Its her body. WRONG!!!! Its a new life. If it were her body how can the father be determined by DNA testing?
Is the DNA the same as the mother or the father? Nope. Similair but not the same.
Please try and understand a little simple biology before you go off on how murdering children can be "safe".

Let's not play word games. When people say "safe legal abortions," it is clear that the safety we're talking about, is the mothers. Key word being abortion. If it weren't an abortion, it would be a birth. so "there are no safe abortions" is melodrama. There is also no need to talk down to someone about "simple biology."

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
The women you know aren't most women. Polling shows most women want abortion available. That's not the same as saying they want an abortion for themselves.

As someone said earlier, these threads never end well but if men could get pregnant abortions would be available at the VFW post, at the gym, while we get oil changes, etc.

Most women want abortion to be legal and available, whether or not they themselves believe it to be an option. If it were men who got pregnant, things would indeed be different.

Perhaps at some point, there will be a "male pill," and what do you bet that it will be free and widely available? Meanwhile female contraception has been and still persists as an issue.

Education and contraception is the best way to prevent abortions. Far more effective than legislation, or moralizing.

A joke -

Two men are sitting at a bar.

One says to the other "Man, my wife and I, our sex life is getting boring, there's just no spark."

The other man says "Hey, spice things up in the bedroom, next time, turn her over, you know.."


"What, and get her pregnant?"

Yeah, you are right lets not play word games. You advocate murdering innocent children because they may be a inconvenience. That is your word game.

Care to back up your claims? And in any event, since when does the majority decide if taking millions of others lives is "okay"?

So the democratic party is the party of abortion, and how many times have I heard them claim, "for the children" and watched them trot the children out on stage and before the cameras in order to claim moral superiority and the high ground.

It seems to me then there ought to be a required disclaimer every time they do so stating, "These children are the ones we didn't abort".

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
Yeah, you are right lets not play word games. You advocate murdering innocent children because they may be a inconvenience. That is your word game.

Care to back up your claims? And in any event, since when does the majority decide if taking millions of others lives is "okay"?

PeteF, if you actually read my many posts in this thread, you'd know that I personally am not in favor of abortion. Nor have I advocated for it simply because of "inconvenience."

Abortion isn't a lightswitch that can be legislated away, and people deciding that they want others to have the right to safe and legal abortions, isn't a mandate that millions be killed. There may be data on "improvised" abortions and injury or death to the woman, I'm not sure. I'm sure it's as difficult to obtain as lives saved by civilians with Concealed Carry Permits.

You aren't alone in the strong opposition to murdering children. The reality is that to actually minimize the deaths, abortion has to stay legal, and a multifaceted effort must be made. Such as the education and contraception that I've mentioned, and making adoptions easier that we've touched on.

America has a lot of kids who need carrying parents, and why people adopt from other countries is that it's difficult to go through the state to do it. While it makes sense to make sure a child isn't being put into a dangerous or abusive home, perhaps we need adoptions to be easier and cheaper. Perhaps there should be a law that you must seek adoption here first before you go oversees?

Again, if you have read my responses through this thread, you would understand that while I'm not in favor of abortion, I understand why it needs to exist. Both because of how the world works, and as far as individual rights are concerned.

Because I believe in freedom and individual rights, I expect others to also believe in those freedoms. Such as the right to bear arms. Not only is it ensconced in the Constitution, but it is also a human right. While I wish to carry and use firearms, I respect that others may not want to.

What they should do, if they don't want a gun, is not buy one. Even if they believe that guns are the cause of all violence and no one should own one. Since they live in America, they need to accept that freedom means other people will live next to you whom you may not agree with. Whose behavior generally has no impact on your life.

One could spuriously argue that the mere presence of my firearms is a danger, but the reality is that there is little or no impact as long as I am responsible. In the case of abortion, where people should focus their opposition to it, is in their own family. Someone elses abortion is not something they have a right to get involved in. Beside having no legal stake, they don't have all the information about why an abortion is being considered.

Why people seek abortions are for more reasons than "inconvenience," and even if that is the reason, as long as I'm not funding that abortion, I will leave them to their business. For people who support abortion, who are often leftist, I make a very similar argument about the right to bear arms.

Abortion is an individual choice, and not simply "the majority deciding that taking millions of lives is OK." There is no upside to abortion, and people seeking it are not doing it lightly. If it were illegal, that wouldn't change.

If you're going to be confrontational, and ignore the bulk of what I've said in this thread, then it's not for you. Threads like this one are typically immediately locked, so too will this one be if the tone doesn't stay civil.

Some would argue that abortion isn't murder, and let us be frank about that. The argument that abortion isn't murder, is an attempt to remove the moral dilemma as well as disqualify a moral opposition to abortion. To be frank it's at best avoidance and at worst dishonest. At the same time it's typically an argument made by people who also support gun control and believe we can shut violence off like a light switch. So, they must also insulate themselves from the killing that they sanction.

To exist in the world as an adult, means encountering situations and choices where there is not a morally pure choice or solution. Abortion is absolutely one of those issues. The methods of reducing the number of abortions must go beyond making them difficult to get, and making them illegal only means that people will resort to improvised means. Abortion made illegal would also adversely effect those who need them medically.

The goal isn't to convince anyone that abortion is wrong or right. Abortion is something that has happened for all of human history and will continue to happen. What we need to do is respect the rights of those who seek abortion, and make sure that both sex education and contraception are available to minimize the number of people who even approach the need for one.

As far as making abortions difficult to obtain, such should not be done solely as an obstruction tactic. This is onerous, and a tactic used by the left when they can't simply ban firearms. If it's not OK to simply put a bunch of fees, paperwork, and narrow criteria between someone and a firearm, then it isn't OK to do it in other cases. This is something we all know as a "Back Door Ban," and it is a tactic that only lines lawyer's pockets. As such things are often litigated, and often struck down in court.

One thing we can all still agree on, is that Oregon should not be funding abortions, for anyone, with taxpayer dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
QUOTE]
PeteF, if you actually read my many posts in this thread...

Well said, sir. I may not agree with every single point you've made, but I agree with most. However, they way you have written your points, I can respect each one whether I agree or not.



.

Too late, the free abortions should have been before they came to America.
Need to offer this to Mexico, Guatamala, El Salvador and Honduras.

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
Too late, the free abortions should have been before they came to America.
Need to offer this to Mexico, Guatamala, El Salvador and Honduras.

If you're serious, then Republican administrations should stop re-instituting the Mexico City Policy.

I'm not thrilled with the billions that the US gives to other nations in the form of foreign aid, whether it has to do with abortion or not. We could use the money here at home to help a lot of people who really need it.

The government shouldn't be funding free abortions for anyone.

quote:

The government shouldn't be funding free abortions for anyone.

I agree...
But now it seems that illegals have a constitutionally guaranteed right to abortion at public expense with this ruling....

The Texas chain-migration abortion

Abortion advocates were dancing with glee when a federal judge ruled that a pregnant teenage illegal immigant in a Texas detention center could go get the abortion she wanted at taxpayer expense. The federal government had been discouraging the facilitation of the act and the shelter at which she was staying did not want to 'facilitate the killing by so much as driving her to the abortion mill.

She didn't want the anchor baby. And given her apparent militancy (though, to be fair, we are only hearing from her from the word of the activists), it looks as though she doesn't particularly want to stay here, being willing to throw out that 'advantage.' More likely, knowing she was pregnant, she seems to have made the decision to come to the U.S. for a free abortion, if for nothing else, the presence of leftwing lawyers who would ensure it would happen. Abortion is not available, at least legally, in the Central American country of her citizenship. Now her victory in court for her right to kill her 16-week old unborn baby opens the gate for the U.S. to become a sanctuary state for any illegal who wants a free abortion.

It's appalling. The anti-abortion forces who fought it said it opens the gate for a constitutionally guaranteed right to abortion for all illegals, at our expense, making the U.S. a magnet for abortions from abroad, no legal entrance required. Given that babies born on U.S. soil are U.S. citizens, like it or not, it also gives foreigners the right to kill these U.S. citizens on U.S. soil which isn't quite what the founders had in mind.

It also tramples heavily on rule of law. A Texas law that requires minors to have the permission of their parents was easily skirted, for one thing, while the Texas law that requires women who want abortions to be fully informed about what they are killing, with sonograms and other evidence, was whined about loudly by the illegal immigrant, who broke the law earlier by entering the U.S. illegally and didn't want to obey this law, either. (Obviously, she didn't come here to obey the law.) Most appalling, the broad picture shows a one-set-of-laws-for-illegals, and another-set-of-laws-for-the-rest-of-us picture, in that she got a free abortion on demand (a violation of the Hyde Amendment) while other Americans must pay for theirs. The Texas Attorney General has pointed out that illegals now seem to have constitutionally guaranteed rights to abortion with this ruling.

Perhaps the Trump administration gave up on fighting for it as the appeals and counter appeals rolled on, given the power of the abortion lobby. Perhaps they gave up on it given the voter sentiment against the games other illegals play with anchor babies, given their automatic U.S. citizenship, and the public's disgust with the entire matter.

Whatever it was, it's a horrible event, with the baby now cut up and sold for parts in the post-abortion marketplace, and the teen living with the fact that she killed her own baby in her pursuit of a nursing degree. You probably wouldn't want this person for your nurse.

The next question is whether she gets to stay here. Someone with this low a value on human life and this unwilling to obey U.S. laws ought to be disqualified by the moral turpitude clause. But all the evidence points to her not really wanting to be here for its own sake. She was just looking for a freebie from Uncle Sucker while allowing herself to be used by the powerful ACLU-led abortion rights lobby here. In the end, it's sad story.

http://www.americanthinker.com...ration_abortion.html

Free abortions for all!

Mandatory if you are on welfare.

Net gain.

quote:

... requiring insurance companies to cover the procedures and putting taxpayers on the hook for the tab.

Then the abortions are not free.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

... requiring insurance companies to cover the procedures and putting taxpayers on the hook for the tab.

Then the abortions are not free.

Nothing is free....
We would all be a lot better off if people would realize that and take some responsibility rather than make demands on others.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:...now it seems that illegals have a constitutionally guaranteed right to abortion at public expense with this ruling....

Curious. People come here in open violation of the law, then claim the law they ignore gives them guaranteed rights.

I would rather see free vasectomies / sterilizations offered, the offer to include all people over the age of consent, whether or not they are legal U.S. citizens.

Just do it automatically....don't ask-don't tell as it were.

420 ,000 priests called, they need more little boys.

so we are agreed then
free tubal ligation's and vasectomey's