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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by PossibleZombie:

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Originally posted by airsoft guy:
I'd rather this, than have to pay for the kids for 18 years (or more, depending on whether or not they decide to enroll in the state's fine penitentiary system). Of course I'd rather the child not be created in the first place, but beggars can't be choosers. While we're at it, why not offer up free sterilizations? If we gotta spend the money, might as well spend it on things that work.

Now pass that popcorn.

This is the right idea. More abortions so we have less future criminals and more sterilization so we can save the cost of future abortions.

So we end up with forced abortions and forced sterilizations of all those the all-powerful gov't may deem to be undesirable. I wonder which of us would be put in the line if someone like Hillary, Obama, de Blasio, were in charge.

Airsoftguy did say "offer up free sterilizations" not force people to be sterilized, and he is only for offering free abortions, not forcing them on people. I read PossibleZombie to be saying the same thing.

Don't make a straw man. They never suggested forced anything.

And you don't think some like Hillary might impose such. You believe there is no such thing as unintended consequences in political matters? You believe that crime and violence and welfare costs will go down significantly if we provide voluntary and free abortions/sterilizations?

Might it be a strawman to present that all people involved in such matter will behave honorably and society will be improved?

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Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by PossibleZombie:

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Originally posted by airsoft guy:
I'd rather this, than have to pay for the kids for 18 years (or more, depending on whether or not they decide to enroll in the state's fine penitentiary system). Of course I'd rather the child not be created in the first place, but beggars can't be choosers. While we're at it, why not offer up free sterilizations? If we gotta spend the money, might as well spend it on things that work.

Now pass that popcorn.

This is the right idea. More abortions so we have less future criminals and more sterilization so we can save the cost of future abortions.

So we end up with forced abortions and forced sterilizations of all those the all-powerful gov't may deem to be undesirable. I wonder which of us would be put in the line if someone like Hillary, Obama, de Blasio, were in charge.

Airsoftguy did say "offer up free sterilizations" not force people to be sterilized, and he is only for offering free abortions, not forcing them on people. I read PossibleZombie to be saying the same thing.

Don't make a straw man. They never suggested forced anything.

And you don't think some like Hillary might impose such. You believe there is no such thing as unintended consequences in political matters? You believe that crime and violence and welfare costs will go down significantly if we provide voluntary and free abortions/sterilizations?

We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, for right now we're talking about an option. As soon as some Hilldawg clone shows up saying, "yeah, lets sterilize all the untermensch and politically unreliable!" then we can worry about it. But for right now, your argument is simply we cannot do this, because six steps down the line, someone might commit genocide.

For right now, as I said, I don't wanna pay for any of this shit, I wish people were responsible enough to handle their own shit, but if we must "do something", then I prefer it be something that actually works. Abortions for unwanted pregnancies, and sterilizations for those who ask, sounds like a much cheaper, and effective solution than filling up orphanariums, or shuffling kids around to various foster parents, or being brought up on the streets, or the multitude of other ways a child is "raised" in less than ideal conditions.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by comet24:
All I'm going to say is abortion threads never end well.

This one didn't even start well.

Going about how I would have guessed.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

The State has no business in the sanctioned death of an unborn child.

You realize that whether a fetus is already a child is the issue, right? Some, like you, think abortion is murder and others do not.

I note this not to argue the point with you. Let me say it again, I won't argue that point with you, or anyone else.

But that is the conclusion that is being debated every time abortion comes up. Abortion opponents say that is is a child as if that settles the question. But it doesn't - that IS the question. Claiming that a fetus is a human being begs the question, in the actual sense of that phrase. That is a argumentative and logical fallacy. You are using the conclusion to prove your thesis.

Here is an example: All crows are black because crows are black birds.

Right, but the 'state' can't have it both ways. If a criminal can be charged/convicted of double homicide for killing a pregnant woman, then 'state sanctioned' abortion on demand (especially late term abortion) should NOT be permissible under the law!

For the record, I'm all for the Double Homicide charges as appropriate!

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Originally posted by airsoft guy:
. . .if we must "do something", then I prefer it be something that actually works. Abortions for unwanted pregnancies, and sterilizations for those who ask, sounds like a much cheaper, and effective solution than filling up orphanariums, or shuffling kids around to various foster parents, or being brought up on the streets, or the multitude of other ways a child is "raised" in less than ideal conditions.

EXCEPT that abortion is morally repugnant, since it's the murder of innocent babies. You seem to overlooked that little fact. For many of us, that's a very real problem, one we cannot get past.

And here we have a state government FORCING its citizens who honestly hold abortion to be murder to support that murder with our hard-earned dollars.

I lack the words, cannot express my disgust and anger with this without lapsing into profanity.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

The State has no business in the sanctioned death of an unborn child.

You realize that whether a fetus is already a child is the issue, right? Some, like you, think abortion is murder and others do not.

A person can use whatever term he wants, but refusing to call a baby in the womb anything that might identify him or her as a human being is simply a way for that person to rationalize what would otherwise be considered a despicable act.

Ask a mother who loses a child during pregnancy if it was "just a fetus." There is a reason why most States consider the murder of a pregnant woman to be the murder of two people.

Hmm. How far is Oregon from an abortion requirement?

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Originally posted by SapperSteel:

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Originally posted by airsoft guy:
. . .if we must "do something", then I prefer it be something that actually works. Abortions for unwanted pregnancies, and sterilizations for those who ask, sounds like a much cheaper, and effective solution than filling up orphanariums, or shuffling kids around to various foster parents, or being brought up on the streets, or the multitude of other ways a child is "raised" in less than ideal conditions.

EXCEPT that abortion is morally repugnant, since it's the murder of innocent babies. You seem to overlooked that little fact. For many of us, that's a very real problem, one we cannot get past.

And here we have a state government FORCING its citizens who honestly hold abortion to be murder to support that murder with our hard-earned dollars.

I lack the words, cannot express my disgust and anger with this without lapsing into profanity.

SAP nothing you can say or display will change the other side of this equation Those for abortion will always and forever see unborn babies as just so much unwanted tissue. Like fat, to be suctioned or surgically removed. Might as well save the angnst they a'int gonna be changed in their thinking. Although why they decided to only terminate babies in the womb and not after their birth remains a mystery to me. I guess it depends on when you think life as we know it comes into being. Although if you harm a unborn baby/fetus in utero you are a murderer
. I personally cannot make any rational of it at all. If anyone can give a rational response other than it's the law I would love to hear it. We all know some laws aren't in the interest of morality.
And please pass some of the popcorn please.

Ignoring the moral issue (which can and has been argued to death.) Let's look at the fiscal issues.

If a poor woman wants and abortion, and can't get it, what are the chances that the resulting kid won't be social services dependent for likely their entire lives? Paying for the abortion may be the lowest cost option available in terms of spending tax money in this situation.

This is why we can't have these threads. As soon as somebody says they're okay with abortions, not cool with them necessarily, but okay. Again I'd prefer not to have them but I prefer to have a lot of things that just aren't gonna happen. Anyhow, someone doesn't think an abortion is the worst thing evar, and suddenly we're evil monsters, who fully embrace eugenics and racism and state sanctioned murder for political dissidents.

The argument quickly leaves the firm, safe, blacktop of the Rational Highway, and burns a path through a forest of emotional arguments. The forest is also somehow frothy. It's a weird forest, like in a swamp. It's a frothy swamp with lots of mosquitos. The mosquitos represent something important, I'm sure, but I'm bad at metaphors.

Now where's that damn popcorn?

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

The State has no business in the sanctioned death of an unborn child.

You realize that whether a fetus is already a child is the issue, right? Some, like you, think abortion is murder and others do not.

A person can use whatever term he wants, but refusing to call a baby in the womb anything that might identify him or her as a human being is simply a way for that person to rationalize what would otherwise be considered a despicable act.

Ask a mother who loses a child during pregnancy if it was "just a fetus." There is a reason why most States consider the murder of a pregnant woman to be the murder of two people.

Removing humanity from the victim to justify an act has been done before. If that doesn't work use convenience and/or urgency. If that still doesn't tip the scale increase emotion until you get your way.

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical" Thomas Jefferson

Silent

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Originally posted by Silent:
"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical"
--Thomas Jefferson

But he was a racist! and a slave owner!

“If you look for perfection, you’ll never be content.” – Leo Tolstoy

I'm not an advocate of the pursuit of perfection. Leo Tolstoy teaches that such dubious divertissement leads to unhappiness.

However, in a perfect world, only married couples would have children, children would be raised by both parents, and abortion would be against the law, as well as an affront to morality itself.

But, we don't live in this perfect world. We would like to believe we are free to make life decisions for others. The truth is we make life decisions for others because we are not free. We are, instead, enslaved to the moral social mores that persist amid a culture of slaves, who trade away the freedom of birth to a child who has harmed no one, for our own convenience.

“Freedom’s an illusion. We all live in prisons of our own making.” ― Skye Warren, Hear Me.

There are exceptions to every rule, but freedom of abortion is simply enslavement to murder for one's ease and utility.

H&K-Guy

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Originally posted by airsoft guy:....For right now, as I said, I don't wanna pay for any of this shit, I wish people were responsible enough to handle their own shit, but if we must "do something", then I prefer it be something that actually works. Abortions for unwanted pregnancies, and sterilizations for those who ask, sounds like a much cheaper, and effective solution than filling up orphanariums, or shuffling kids around to various foster parents, or being brought up on the streets, or the multitude of other ways a child is "raised" in less than ideal conditions.

And my point is, given human nature and how bureaucracies work, what starts out as a good idea, with good intentions, can often backfire with unintended consequences, making matters worse rather than better. I am not convinced that making abortions, sterilizations, throw in contraceptives, free to the recipient, again, given human nature, will improve society.

The concept of the "slippery slope" is a valid one.
People really do slip on slippery slopes and slide further down rapidly once the initial fall is made.
When we start justifying killing, because it is "inconvenient" to allow the life....or because "they will probably end up on welfare", or because they might be a "burden on society", or because "they aren't fully conscious".....well, I think it is easy to see that no rational person can make these arguments in a moral society.
Yet SOMEHOW the pro-abortionists consider it valid reasoning in one case: abortion of fetuses.

Let me get this straight.
The police no longer have the right to shoot a criminal unless he is white, but we can kill unborn babies regardless of their color and the taxpayers can foot the bill.
Gee, I guess we pretty well have screwed this country up. Wonder how much difference there is between the U.S. at this present date and Sodom and Gomorrah?

You can't be anti-abortion, and anti-welfare. You can't be pro-abortion and anti-capital punishment. Yet, people find a way.

I do think abortion should be legal, and women have a right to it. I also think if someone wants an abortion, they should pay for it themselves. Period.

If you want to murder the unborn, just do us all a favor and call it what it is, murder. Whether you think you're murdering a person or not, is irrelevant. Of course abortion is murder.

The key thing about abortion, is that without safe legal abortion, the danger to women, and the child if it survives are greatly increased. People who want an abortion will find a way to have one.

Banning abortion makes exactly as much sense as banning "assault weapons." It is a moral pat on the back, a solution which doesn't solve the problem it proports to.

Leftists want to ban guns, because no one needs them and only monsters would engage in that kind of violence. The Right wants to ban abortions because no one needs them, and only monsters would engage in that kind of violence. If the idiots on the left would knock it off pushing gun bans, I'd say the right needs to knock it off with abortion bans.

Why is it, in both cases, people are so intent on banning a right they aren't using?

Abortion is legal, us white guys need to understand it.

Until its not, then not much we can do about it.

I live in Washington but work in Oregon. Both of these states are fucked if you ask me. My wife and I are seriously considering moving to Texas, this might be what pushes us to move. I can't stand it here anymore.