quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Arc was just explaining that laws outlawing murder don't work out.

How many murders do you think that there would be if it was legal?

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Arc was just explaining that laws outlawing murder don't work out.

How many murders do you think that there would be if it was legal?

Uhh, dunno. Lots, maybe, 'n' stuff.

Did you have a point to make?

H&K-Guy

No. Just pointing out that it is a ridiculous argument to make. Not by you.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
The only minor issue I find myself disagreeing with you is that I truly believe "Abortion is bad because killing babies is wrong."

I know, I live in my own little world, outside of reality, when it comes to this. But this is my fantasy, so let me have it.

I personally don't support abortion, but I see why it is necessary. In that way, I'm also going with how I feel other people should act, which is to live my life and let others live theirs. If I thought that there was a way to actually eliminate something like abortion, I'd be in favor. Such a thing simply doesn't exist, much like a homicide rate of 0% from banning firearms.

We tried outlawing murder, how's that working out?

I think it is a complex issue as most societal problems are.Murder has been happening ever since humans were first formed.Thousands of years later it is still illegal to murder another human. We have never thrown up our hands and said; "Well it has been happening for thousands of years and it will continue,so let's just make it legal." If abortion had never been declared legal by the Supreme Court, it would still be happening,just like murder.

It is a societal shift that we see, in which things that we were taught,and things that we know, to be wrong are now sanctioned by society. Our society is not well and we all know it.Not just abortion but with many things. Deep down everyone knows that a fetus is a life, and if that life can survive and actually make it out of the womb it is legally protected for now. But if a doctor with the skills to extinguish it and the mother wants it "terminated"
it has no legal protection. Like you have said arcwelder76 we all know it is murder. We need to question the society that allows this to happen. And just because the Supreme Court says it is legal,does not mean it is right. They have been wrong before. Just take a look at the Dred Scott case affirming slavery.

So if we know in our heart it is wrong,but that it will continue no matter what the laws say.What should we do? Accept it,or do what is right by our conscience, and work to eliminate it? We still try to prevent other murders and have serious consequences for people who perpetrate them.

In 5 minutes time you can transform from a fetal tissue to a protected human. Think about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Arc was just explaining that laws outlawing murder don't work out.

How many murders do you think that there would be if it was legal?

Does there have to be a number for the idea to be right that there would doubtless be many more if there were no consequences? I'm pretty sure Mrs DF would have dun me in long ago when I was hacking on her for driving through the garage door again.

I previously said that Roe is wrongly decided, so the Supremes have nothing to do with my views.

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
So if we know in our heart it is wrong,but that it will continue no matter what the laws say.What should we do? Accept it,or do what is right by our conscience, and work to eliminate it? We still try to prevent other murders and have serious consequences for people who perpetrate them.

In 5 minutes time you can transform from a fetal tissue to a protected human. Think about it.

As with gun homicides, there is no 0%. Also, the closer you get to 0, the more effort needs to be exerted. There can never be no abortions.

The most effective way to reduce abortions, is sex education and contraception.

As far as hearts, and conscience, we should all attend to our own individual lives as our hearts and conscience guide us to. If you're comfortable using the law or government to enforce your own moral standing, but don't like it when the left does the same to ban guns...

Surrendering rights to the government is a bad thing, even if they are ones you aren't using.

What we can all agree on, is that no taxpayer dollars should pay for abortions. If you want an abortion, you need to pay for it yourself. If you can't pay for it, find someone who will voluntarily give you the money or perform the procedure.

The key, is that abortions will persist, and without medically safe ones available women will injure or kill themselves trying to abort that baby.

Then there are cases of rape or incest, or like my friends whose child would not survive. These folks are not the people who have idly had sex and simply want to erase the result. Such things should not be lumped in with the typical derision of those who seek abortions.

Within ones own family or marriage, abortions may not be an option. For my wife and I, it wouldn't be unless that child was going to live a brief life knowing only pain and never seeing the outside of a hospital. Or perhaps not the outside of the womb. Asking my wife to take that child to term is not something I would do, to her or that child.

I accept that people will have abortions, I shouldn't be expected to pay for it in any way.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Chellim1, if you'd actually like to participate in a discussion, do me the courtesy of addressing my entire post. Not editing it and making a straw man to poke at.

That isn't a straw man argument. A straw man is falsely assigning a position to your opponent, and then refuting that argument, not the true argument. A straw man is not a legitimate argument.

That is a reductio ad absurdum argument, which attempts to show the position held by your opponent inevitably leads to a absurd result. This can be a legitimate arguing technique.

Yes, exactly.
He already conceded that abortion is murder.
So the absurd is how far should we extend that?

And just for the record: I don't think my wife has the right to murder me... no matter how much I may piss her off at times!

To bring this back to a strictly political issue (clearly, is is more than that) what we are seeing in this case is but another example of the continued expansion positive rights with the reduction of negative rights these expansions serve the ultimate aim of ending individual liberty and it's sure foundation of a moral code.

Silent

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I previously said that Roe is wrongly decided, so the Supremes have nothing to do with my views.

You and me both, jhe888.

flashguy

My personal view about this topic is pretty simple. Aborting a baby should be a decision made between the woman, her husband, and the doctor. And only to protect the life of the mother.

In this day and age of all kinds of birth control, many provided at no cost to the female, I find no rational basis for abortion.

Female wants to screw like mink, fine but use birth control. I find it totally illogical for those who would claim that the female does not know how babies are made. Damn, they teach it in school now, in so-called "health" classes.

And with that, I am out of this thread.

Wait... the abortion for illegals, is that retroactive?

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
Wait... the abortion for illegals, is that retroactive?

Are you suggesting illegal immigrants be killed?

Illegal immigrants deserve to be deported, if all they have done is enter the country illegally.

If you want to talk about killing illegal immigrants just because they are illegal immigrants, find another website. I believe one is called The Daily Stormer.

I hope you were only joking, but that shit ain't funny.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
Wait... the abortion for illegals, is that retroactive?

Are you suggesting illegal immigrants be killed?

Illegal immigrants deserve to be deported, if all they have done is enter the country illegally.

If you want to talk about killing illegal immigrants just because they are illegal immigrants, find another website. I believe one is called The Daily Stormer.

I hope you were only joking, but that shit ain't funny.

The way I read it, Rightwire is making a larger point. That is that if life is disposable in the womb and the principle is absolutely true, then it can be applied universally. Life inside, life outside. That being a valid perspective that many hold, your rebuke rings hollow in light of what we read in this very thread. The timeline is merely arbitrary.

This is NOT a Chicken, not yet:



No one is murdering chickens to make a breakfast burrito.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
This is NOT a Chicken, not yet:

This is a distortion. Right now.

Subject to termination:

46,

Yes, I agree with you, and I am outraged as well. All of the Hens aborting their eggs has got to stop!

But then the chickens would use coat hangers or some other dangerous means to extinguish their unhatched young.

Obviously taking eggs for food is directly analogous to murder of unborn humans.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
This is NOT a Chicken, not yet:



No one is murdering chickens to make a breakfast burrito.

This is a duck. Can you see the difference? When you eat balut, it tastes like chicken soup, not eggs.