A scandal over conduct on a Royal Navy nuclear submarine has widened after it was disclosed that a second officer was also removed for an alleged improper relationship with a female colleague.

The submarine’s commander and his second-in-command were last week both taken off HMS Vigilant while Navy chiefs investigate the claims.

Cdr Stuart Armstrong, the boat’s commander, was earlier this week revealed to have been relieved of his duties after allegations his relationship with a female subordinate was “closer than it should have been”.

But the Telegraph understands that his right-hand-man, the submarine’s Executive Officer, was removed at the same time amid allegations of a separate improper relationship with a different female subordinate. The Executive Officer has not been named.

Naval sources said the removal of the top two officers from a vessel was “highly unusual”.

As the allegations surfaced, two senior officers in the Submarine Service are understood to have flown from the naval base at Faslane to America, where the boat was deployed, to deal with the fallout.

It’s not a question of women on submarines or warships, it’s a question of standards
Naval source
A source familiar with the investigation said Naval chiefs were furious with the alleged breach of discipline in the secretive Submarine Service and deeply embarrassed that the situation had become public.

Relationships within the same command chain are banned onboard submarines and warships for fear they will lead to favouritism that undermines discipline and orders.

Relationships outside the same chain of command are allowed, but there is a strict “no touching” rule during deployments.

The incident comes only six years after the government removed a ban on women serving on submarines.

One Naval source familiar with the investigation said: “It’s not a question of women on submarines or warships, it’s a question of standards.”

Another Naval source said the men had been removed as a precaution “without prejudice” while the investigation continued.

They are believed to face a “full range” of possible punishments if they are found to be guilty of any wrongdoing.

HMS Vigilant is one of four Vanguard Class submarines armed with Trident nuclear missiles as part of Britain’s deterrent.

She was not on a nuclear deterrent patrol at the time of the alleged conduct and was visiting America. Vanguard Class submarines have a complement of 135 including 14 officers and spend months on top secret missions patrolling beneath the waves of the North Atlantic to maintain the nation’s deterrent.

Cdr Armstrong, from Helensburgh near Glasgow, took command of the boat in February.

A Royal Navy biography says the 41-year-old was previously involved in cruise missile strikes and reconnaissance against Libyan regime forces from HMS Triumphant during the 2011 campaign to oust Col Muammar Gaddafi.

A Royal Navy spokesman said the incident had not affected submarine operations. He said: “We can confirm an investigation is underway, but it would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage. Any allegations of wrongdoing are taken very seriously and will be dealt with appropriately.”

The incident comes only three years after the first female commander of a warship was stripped of her command following claims she had a relationship with her married third-in-command. Cdr Sarah West, 41, was removed from command of the frigate HMS Portland in August 2014. LINK

Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

What else do we have to take off the submarines because the leaders can't be trusted around them? Money, guns, other people's belongings, etc.

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

Exactly. I am not a fan of pushing females into 'combat positions,' but this is a standards issue; not a gender issue.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

What else do we have to take off the submarines because the leaders can't be trusted around them? Money, guns, other people's belongings, etc.

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

Wish it were that simple.

You're familiar with the homily about the only things in life that are certain are death and taxes? Well for unknown reasons it left out the third certain thing: people are going to fuck.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

What else do we have to take off the submarines because the leaders can't be trusted around them? Money, guns, other people's belongings, etc.

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

You ever work on a ship for months at a time?

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

Exactly. I am not a fan of pushing females into 'combat positions,' but this is a standards issue; not a gender issue.

It's both.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

What else do we have to take off the submarines because the leaders can't be trusted around them? Money, guns, other people's belongings, etc.

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

You ever work on a ship for months at a time?

I haven't but I don't consider my integrity to be situationally dependent either. If I tell you I'm not going to dip my pen in company ink then that's my statement. There is no asterisk to that statement that adds "unless it gets really tough then screw it".

I'm also not arrogant enough that when I do have a human moment and don't meet the standard that I've set for myself to blame the temptation. If I take a cookie during my diet it's not the cookies fault.

It's not like there isn't fucking going on when there are no women on board.

This is a fucking your coworkers problem, not a women on board problem.

And no rules on Earth are going to stop people in close quarters from occasionally fucking.

It no doubt happens on every big job, ship, sub, project, or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Yeah, putting women on submarines is a fantastic idea.

What else do we have to take off the submarines because the leaders can't be trusted around them? Money, guns, other people's belongings, etc.

If the leader can't follow the rules then they can't follow the rules. I'm not saying it's easy but you can either control your impulses or you can't.

You ever work on a ship for months at a time?

I haven't but I don't consider my integrity to be situationally dependent either. If I tell you I'm not going to dip my pen in company ink then that's my statement. There is no asterisk to that statement that adds "unless it gets really tough then screw it".

I'm also not arrogant enough that when I do have a human moment and don't meet the standard that I've set for myself to blame the temptation. If I take a cookie during my diet it's not the cookies fault.

To put women on a submarine and not think that it would create this very problem and not disrupt operations is beyond naive.

Men and women inside a coffin for months. Nothing could possibly happen. Nah.

Coed ships lead to problems.

Doesn’t matter what or how big the ship is.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
It's not like there isn't fucking going on when there are no women on board.

You know this how?

Men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m-xZ4gz4MM

quote:

It’s not a question of women on submarines or warships

There's been successful warships a lot longer than there's been mixed crews.

It's War and it has 1 purpose. Not everyone gets to play.

In the perfect world this would be ok. But we're dealing with people and they're flawed. Some people can go to work and not screw their coworkers, others are not so disciplined. All of you must have experienced dysfunctional work environments due to bad personal behavior. These are the same people who make up our military.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
Coed ships lead to problems.

Doesn’t matter what or how big the ship is.

No different than foxholes.

quote:

You ever work on a ship for months at a time?

Yes. Yes I have. And I managed to not have sex with anyone.

It's all a matter of morals. I saw plenty of people who were screwing on the ship and in port, and then go home to their spouses and families.

It was really pretty disgusting.

I would say less than 5% of the crew were making headlines, while 95% of the crew continued working the mission.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
It's not like there isn't fucking going on when there are no women on board.

You know this how?

Probability and statistics.

Been on ships for months at a time and there was shit going on from O to E, Male to Female, and I have no doubt same gender. All it takes is eyes to know what is going on.

To me the issue is the leadership was getting involved.

I'm just amazed how many men are slaves to their cocks.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:


I'm just amazed how many men are slaves to their cocks.

It has been ever thus.

As I pointed out barely a week ago, “Temptation is a woman's weapon and man's excuse." -- H. L. Mencken

I think everyone should be able to agree that at the very least it is an unnecessary complication in a warship.

It is also an unnecessary complication in combat.

No I am not talking about "gender" I am talking about males and females serving together. The military is not or should not be a social experiment.