I think a tanker would just destroy the whole thing.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

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I guess the roof was all wood...

I would imagine the roof was made of slate or something similar. A wood (shingles?) roof would not last very long.novation from Antiquity to Modernity", Lesson 12.

Here in Europe we do not use wooden shingles to roof cathedrals.

Only the VERY rare wooden churches - a few in Scandinavia and the Baltic and here in UK, MIGHT have wooden roofs, but it's unlikely nevertheless. Russian churches, certainly. Even today, bearing in mind the rural nature of Russia.

apparently they considered helo's but the amount of water was very low given the risk

a water drop from a forest fire bomber would do more damage to surrounding structures than good

I'd like to see a complete list of the names of all of the contractors and workers

suspicious timing...given previous attacks on other religious properties

I am greatly troubled about this. I'm not Catholic, but this is a blow to all humanity. I've been there several times, the most recent in 2015. Here are my photos from that visit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/...s/72157656508958616/.

So much History lost.

flashguy

Names of all the workers. Then email and text history, check into their friends and acquaintances. It only takes one person, he could have hidden some oil soaked rags hoping for spontaneous combustion. He would have waited for a windy day, such as today.

If it is arson, and proven to be terrorist, I would think even the French will "have had enough".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: c1steve,

Though officials say the fire looks like an accident, it's certainly curious that ten Catholic churches have been vandalized across France in the span of a week.

Anger as France sees 10 Catholic churches attacked in ONE week - 'God will forgive, NOT ME
A SEVEN day spree of vandalism has seen Catholic churches targeted across France sparking fears of a fresh wave of anti-Christian sentiment in the country, including one church being defiled with human EXCREMENT.

https://www.express.co.uk/news...douard-phillipe-isis

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:

If it is arson, and proven to be terrorist, I would think even the French will "have had enough".

You bet. My wife right now doesn't even want to look at the news. She's angry. If arson were proven, she would not be very forgiving.

a number of pictures here:

https://www.breitbart.com/euro...es-restoration-work/

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Originally posted by navyshooter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhe888:

Speaking of which, if everything wooden burns up, wouldn't the stone remain, perhaps not too badly damaged?

Timber beams or trusses socketed into walls can have bad effects on walls when the timber collapses, leading to prying on the surrounding masonry. This can lead to additional damage in the stonework. Some stone that's heated to a high degree and then subjected to spray from the fire hoses can be subjected to rapid surficial cooling that can cause an explosive shattering of the surface layer of stone. There can be changes in the stone as noted in the report navyshooter linked (thanks, navyshooter!).

With the flying buttresses and vaulting, I'm hoping that most of the outer structure will remain standing, but I would expect the interior vaults over the over the nave and aisles to have to be taken down (if they haven't collapsed). They'll almost certainly have to shore the walls, remove damaged stonework on the interior (as well as any on the exterior), and then rebuild the walls, exterior bracing, and then the vaults before starting on the roof. It will be many years before the rebuilding is completed (assuming they have the money to do it).

Edit: Someone asked about the roofing. I thought I recalled the roofing material being copper over woodsheathing supported by the large wood trusses above the stone vaulting but one of the websites I visited this afternoon said the ribbed roofing was lead.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
Names off all the workers. Then email and text history, check into their friends and acquaintances. It only takes one person, he could have hidden some oil soaked rags hoping for spontaneous combustion. He would have waited for a windy day, such as today.

If it is arson, and proven to be terrorist, I would think even the French will "have had enough".

Really?

Thanks for the pics, flashguy. I haven't been there in 45 years and your shots help bring it back. This seems incomprehensible. Tears are welling up.

It's not the roof's surface that would be wood. It's likely slate at stated. But the structure of the roof is very likely wood. Also the roof sheathing under the slate is also likely wood.

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Originally posted by tacfoley:

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

I guess the roof was all wood...

I would imagine the roof was made of slate or something similar. A wood (shingles?) roof would not last very long.novation from Antiquity to Modernity", Lesson 12.

Here in Europe we do not use wooden shingles to roof cathedrals.

Only the VERY rare wooden churches - a few in Scandinavia and the Baltic and here in UK, MIGHT have wooden roofs, but it's unlikely nevertheless. Russian churches, certainly. Even today, bearing in mind the rural nature of Russia.

Religion aside this is heartbreaking.

Beautiful photos, flashguy.

Very sad loss to France, and all the world, as it would be a loss to the world if the Taj Mahal were destroyed. It's not just about religion. Notre Dame was a magnificent work of architectural art, as well as a historical and cultural treasure.

It was impossible to watch that iconic steeple collapse without thinking of 9/11. At that time, it was stunning to see a counterintuitive plan unfold. We think of setting fire to something from the bottom up. But if you can generate enough heat-- and just look at the photos Bama posted, above, of those colossal, solid wood beams--the upper portion collapses into the lower and destroys it that way.

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Originally posted by RAMIUS:
This is horrible. I’ve always wanted to visit.

Just curious, what is burning (Other than pews and artifacts)? Is there a ton of wood in the structure? I always imagined it was all stone.

These old buildings were constructed with wooden timbers at their core with the stone added as they went. The wood being 900 years old nearly would be extremely flammable of course and burn with much heat and quickly.

To give an idea of the wooden framing in Notre Dame. More pics at the link. Also, the roof consisted of 1326 slabs of lead, weighing 210 tons.









http://www.notredamedeparis.fr...ecture/la-charpente/

The frame of Notre-Dame de Paris is certainly one of the oldest structures that we have in Paris with that of Saint-Pierre de Montmartre (1147) which is the main vestige of the great Abbey of the Ladies of Montmartre founded by Queen Adelaide of Savoy, wife of King Louis VI the Fat; and also elements of that of Saint-Germain des Prés (1160-1170).

This set is given the romantic name of forest because of the large number of beams that had to be used to set it up, each beam coming from a different tree. It is a framework of oaks. Its dimensions are impressive: more than 100 m long, 13 m wide in the nave, 40 m in the transept and 10 m high.

Technically, with the Gothic, the establishment of warheads required steep roofs; those of Notre-Dame de Paris are 55 °. In addition, the scarcity of large woods, due to land clearing and urban development at the time, made it necessary to use lower-section and therefore lighter woods, which allowed for the elevation of the framework and the accentuation of their slope.

In the choir, there existed a first frame with woods felled around 1160-1170 (it is estimated that some could have 300 to 400 years, which brings us to the 8th or 9th centuries !!!). This first frame has disappeared, but woods were reused in the second frame set up in 1220. They are still there today . Why this second frame?
- Fire, it's not impossible.
- But above all, raising the wall dripter 2.70 m in the choir to bring it in line with that of the nave.
- And also, enlargement of the high windows.

In the nave, the carpentry is set up between 1220 and 1240 . Indeed, the work of the nave began in 1182, after the consecration of the choir. Some even think as early as 1175, before the consecration. The work stops after the fourth bay leaving the nave unfinished while the elevation of the facade is begun in 1208. The work of the nave will be resumed in 1218 to counter the façade.



On this frame rests a lead roof consisting of 1326 tables 5 mm thick weighing 210 tons . In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, roofs were covered with flat tile churches because of the abundant clay deposits. Paris, being far from such deposits, was preferred to lead. In 1196, Bishop Maurice de Sully bequeathed 5,000 pounds for the purchase of lead.

Although the carvings of the choir and the nave went through the centuries, those of the transepts and the spire were redone in the middle of the 19th century during the great restoration campaign of the cathedral under the direction of The Duke . Made according to the principles then in force, they differ from the framework of the choir and the nave, in particular as regards the dimensions of the beams which are much more imposing than those of the Middle Ages and more distant.

I attended a service at Notre Dame back around 1996 and toured the cathedral. I'm not particularly religious, and I'm certainly not Catholic, but it remains one of the most astounding places I've ever been. Walking up stone steps that had been worn into u shapes by centuries of feet has stuck with me to this day, as has the sight of Paris radiating out when viewed from the roof like growth rings on a tree.

This is a tragedy for the French and the world as a whole.

Checked back in that live feed, and the fire doesn't look to be getting smaller after nearly 4 hours...

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
To give an idea of the wooden framing in Notre Dame.

That certainly gives an idea.

Paris fire service just stated that the next 60-90 minutes will decide whether Notre Dame can be saved.

We were recently there. This is a sad day.