quote:

Armed law enforcement officers conducting personal business are not specifically listed as “authorized” persons under the law.

The way I interpret the Title 18 USC that Mojojojo posted is, as directed by Fed161 a couple posts later: while not specifically authorized, neither are uniformed officers specifically denied authorization to remain armed. Fed161 sensibly decided not to challenge LEOs, no matter what their reason for being in the building. Good decision.

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Originally posted by Ken226:
The security guard was charged criminally, with 2 counts of aggravated menacing.

For those of you defending little Johnny Rambo's actions, how do you account for the fact that he was fired, arrested and charged?

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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I would say if a uniformed LEO is "on call" and is expected and capable to respond, the officer is on duty. Lunch, bank deposit, IRS visit, whatever...

The difference is between "on duty" and "on official business". The federal property prohibited ALL persons from being armed if not there on official business.

The one officer asked why the security guard was armed then. Well....He was hired to be there in an armed position. Official business. The officer came in to ask a personal tax question. Not official business. All of the responding officers.....official business.


Personally I think everybody should be allowed to be armed inside of IRS offices. The one I have been to here in St. Louis is so scared of the public than you can't even see any employees when you walk in. Armed guard, waiting area, and booths with automatic doors. When your appointment is called, the little door opens and then you can speak to whomever is there.

What are they so afraid of?

Scared of copy cat crazy assholes that could kamikazee airplanes into buildings.

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Originally posted by 357fuzz:
No one is allowed to testify in Fed court armed except the Marshals. Our SS office has no problem w/ armed LEO’s we can even go into the USA’s office or other fed offices armed.

Not even FBI agents? Or just nobody who isn’t Federal LE?

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Originally posted by parabellum:

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Originally posted by Ken226:
The security guard was charged criminally, with 2 counts of aggravated menacing.

For those of you defending little Johnny Rambo's actions, how do you account for the fact that he was fired, arrested and charged?

In case I wasn’t clear, I absolutely wasn’t defending little Johnny Rambo’s actions - he was clearly an overreacting idiot.

The case can be made that the officer broke the law. The case can equally be made that it is a stupid law.

Nobody involved in that fiasco comes out of it looking good, at least in my view.

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Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
The security guard was charged criminally, with 2 counts of aggravated menacing.

For those of you defending little Johnny Rambo's actions, how do you account for the fact that he was fired, arrested and charged?

I suspect they can't account for it.

It would be awful hard to charge the security guard with a crime, if he was lawfully threatening the use of deadly force to remove someone who unlawfully entered the building with a firearm.

But, since I'm a federal LEO who works in a federally owned building, with local LEOs, i have a rather narrow outlook on the subject.

It would never, ever, enter my mind to try and disarm any of the guys I rely on for backup. We interpret the above mentioned statute to cover any state or local LEO who is in uniform, regardless of whether they are responding to a call or not. We carry on social security administration property, in the post office, on commercial flights, and so can local LEOs. They require special training from the TSA to carry on commercial flights, but are allowed to do so.

Federal courthouses are a different thing entirely. Different rules. Even federal officers are disarmed in a federal courthouse. Only the Marshals Service remains armed in a federal courthouse.

I've spent a shitload of time in federal courthouses.

Back up people. Tell me again how the officer broke the law. He was told he couldn't come in with the gun and he was LEAVING.

If you walked in with your concealed pistol and saw that you weren't allowed to have it, you'd leave too, correct? They wouldn't arrest you on the spot? You haven't tried to walk past the metal detectors?

First time I visited my wife at the Federal building years ago off duty, they said oh, you need to lock that in your car and I said ok, left, locked it in the safe and came back.

Walked into FBI building on a tour, they said you need to lock that up and come back. Same thing at Kennedy Space Center. I left when I was told.


Yeah, maybe the deputy shouldn't be doing personal business on duty but that's what lunch breaks are for.

"Off duty?" My favorite older cousin was a beat cop in Brooklyn. He stated that he was never off duty. Off shift, but not off duty. He said that cops were on duty 24 / 7 until the day that they retired.

Wow, that was absurd on the security officer’s part. Even though the deputy may have disagreed that he couldn’t go in armed, he was leaving to comply.

Even if the guard wanted to take a "letter of the law" approach to this, OK. Maybe that's how they do it where he is located. That's not how we did it where I was located. That may be because of the questionable status of the law as it relates to local armed LEOs. However, no one can say that this guard wasn't anything other than a total ass hole in how he handled this. No common sense, no people skills. He could have talked to the officer in a completely non-confrontational manner as soon as he entered the building and explained the law (as he saw it) to him. He could have taken a "we're on the same team" approach and thanked the officer for helping him do his job. I have no doubt the officer would have complied. The guard deserves what happened to him. I once had to get rid of a security guard who was a retired LEO. I had plenty of good guards who were able to calm down angry visitors with good people skills and experience deescalating situations from their LEO days. The interview could be completed successfully with the issue addressed in some manner. But this guy always managed to throw gasoline on a fire and make things worse. I later had a guard who knew him tell me that he retired before his department could fire him.

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Originally posted by Chowser:
Back up people. Tell me again how the officer broke the law. He was told he couldn't come in with the gun and he was LEAVING.

Oh, but even by doing that, he was breaking the law

Some interesting tidbits- slightly past the 20 min mark, the guy being told that the original dispatch was for an armed black guy, no other description, and the internal affairs guy stating that he has been to the building "all of the time" in plain clothes, with his sidearm and a badge, and he never got stopped.

There is no defense of Barney Fife in this one.

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Some interesting tidbits- slightly past the 20 min mark, the guy being told that the original dispatch was for an armed black guy, no other description, and the internal affairs guy stating that he has been to the building "all of the time" in plain clothes, with his sidearm and a badge, and he never got stopped.

And at 6:21 from another officer who's just out of shot to the left:

"I quit carrying my gun up here when I was sworn. Uh, because they said you can't have it in here. I keep going, I can take it to the 7th floor."

I've pointed this out in threads that involve employees at various businesses asking armed officers to leave. You can't have an unclear policy, or one that is crystal clear, and then complain about employees making their own exceptions or following the rules exactly as written.

Still doesn't excuse the actions of the guard, but clearly this was a known policy that has been enforced in the past. At least according to the other officer.

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Originally posted by slosig:

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Originally posted by 357fuzz:
No one is allowed to testify in Fed court armed except the Marshals. Our SS office has no problem w/ armed LEO’s we can even go into the USA’s office or other fed offices armed.

Not even FBI agents? Or just nobody who isn’t Federal LE?

Not even. I worked DEA. Had to lock up our guns upon entrance to the Fed courthouse. Whether there for court or interviews or whatever. Everyone but the Marshals, the CSO’s, and the DSO’s are disarmed.

Have the courts ruled what "official business" means? The deputy was in the IRS office and wanted to ask a tax question. Isn't that the official business of the IRS?

It's the same with the Post Office. When I mail something at the Post Office, I'm there on official business, mailing stuff is the whole reason the Post Office exists. I've shown up many times at the Post Office with a concealed firearm, announced the fact that I had a concealed firearm, and not once has anyone batted an eye at me. They ask how I would like to have it sent and if I would like insurance.

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Originally posted by 357fuzz:
Not even. I worked DEA. Had to lock up our guns upon entrance to the Fed courthouse. Whether there for court or interviews or whatever. Everyone but the Marshals, the CSO’s, and the DSO’s are disarmed.

Thanks for the answer. I never wanted to be in a federal courtroom anyway, but there’s another reason to stay out.

Thanks also to Ken226 for answering the question earlier.

Why does an IRS office need armed rent-a-cops as opposed to unarmed rent-a-cops?

Do people make cash payments there, such that they would be a robbery target like a bank? Are they worried about pissed taxpayers showing up and starting something with IRS employees that would require an armed response by a rent-a-cop?

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I don't know the answer.

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Originally posted by radioman:
Why does an IRS office need armed rent-a-cops as opposed to unarmed rent-a-cops?

Do people make cash payments there, such that they would be a robbery target like a bank? Are they worried about pissed taxpayers showing up and starting something with IRS employees that would require an armed response by a rent-a-cop?

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I don't know the answer.

Just google "attacks against IRS employees." Lots of examples. Happens all the time.

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Do people make cash payments there, such that they would be a robbery target like a bank? Are they worried about pissed taxpayers showing up and starting something with IRS employees that would require an armed response by a rent-a-cop?

I don't know about the first, but I'll wager a great deal of the second goes on.

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Originally posted by trapper189:
I've shown up many times at the Post Office with a concealed firearm, announced the fact that I had a concealed firearm, and not once has anyone batted an eye at me.

Really?

Do you use a command voice or just say it real quiet like?

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Do you use a command voice or just say it real quiet like?

You know how they do not take some people seriously?? The Paul Blart type. Who knows?? I think he meant CONCEALED in a box for shipment.