I will politely tell you guys you don’t know what you are talking about. Comparing this to a mistake in a car shows just how little you guys know about aviation. Two airplanes on one runway are just about the most costly mistake you can make. Crossing an active runway is grounds to get in big trouble. His excuse is he mistook “hold short” for “cleared to cross runway ##”. Aviation has very very specific verbage to avoid this mistake. Compare those two and tell me they sound similar.

Even if you give him the engine failure, fair enough, go watch the tapes of the other one. John Wayne Airport. He overflew an American Airlines jet with 100+ passengers and lands on the adjacent TAXIWAY. He should have lost his license for that alone.

Aviation is very unforgiving of complacency or mistakes. He’s doing both. If he dies in an airplane we can only hope he dies alone and doesn’t take a couple hundred with him.

It’s nothing like driving a car.

Not remotely like driving a car.

Just ask Roy Halladay....

You call him DR. Jones, Doll.

I commented re some pilot stuff in another thread a week or two ago.

For quite a few years I worked on the business end of a firm involved with aerial surveillance technology. We worked with Navy pilots, forest fire pilots, commercial pilots, flight instructors. The gist I got was it is quite rate for someone of that age to have the reaction speed, cognative/neuro-muscular skill, to respond and safely maneuver a plane when there is a problem in flight.

I went on a number of flights, sat next to the pilot, took the controls a few times. I almost signed up to get my pilot license. But I backed out because I did not want to be the pilot responsible to get the plane down safely when the engine died in mid air (or some other major mechanical or weather problem). I know very accomplished pilots who surrendered their licenses for that same reason, they didn't have confidence in their skill to avoid a pending disaster.

I would be quite surprised Ford would still have his pilot license if he wasn't a celeb.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
He overflew an American Airlines jet with 100+ passengers and lands on the adjacent TAXIWAY. He should have lost his license for that alone.

He’s probably a good person. But so is my mother and at some point you just gotta take the keys.

Ford is a good pilot, very serious about flying, and has been flying for over 25 years, and has over 5,000 hours of flight experience. He's no screwup. The article at the outset of this thread is wrong.

The incident described is a runway incursion, the single most common error made among private and professional aviators. It's been a hot-button topic for a number of years now with the FAA, and many authorities abroad, too.


Ford's forced landing of a PT-22 on a Santa Monica golf course occurred following an internal failure in the carburetion of a Kinner Engine (metering jet). Ford had experienced an engine failure, and was unable to get to a runway; he landed at a golf course.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenera...RType=Final&IType=FA

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Two airplanes on one runway are just about the most costly mistake you can make. Crossing an active runway is grounds to get in big trouble.

Would this be akin to walking down range to fix/replace your target on an active range?

I don't know the details, but from the little evidence shared, the FAA needs to yank his license.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Ford is a good pilot, very serious about flying, and has been flying for over 25 years, and has over 5,000 hours of flight experience. He's no screwup. The article at the outset of this thread is wrong.

The incident described is a runway incursion, the single most common error made among private and professional aviators. It's been a hot-button topic for a number of years now with the FAA, and many authorities abroad, too.


Ford's forced landing of a PT-22 on a Santa Monica golf course occurred following an internal failure in the carburetion of a Kinner Engine (metering jet). Ford had experienced an engine failure, and was unable to get to a runway; he landed at a golf course.

What about his landing on a taxiway and overflying an airliner in the process in broad daylight?

Like was stated earlier, if he weren’t a celebrity, he would’ve lost his license.

Fuck that. He’s not flying at podunk general aviation airports. He could kill hundreds. He’s making lots of mistakes in a very short time span. You can pretend he’s not losing cognitive skills but that’s just rationalization. I noticed you completely ignored his fiasco at SNA. Overflew a loaded airliner sitting at the hold short to land on the taxiway. In broad fucking daylight. He was a serious aviator, now he’s just a danger to everyone out there.

No, he wouldn't have lost his pilot certificate.

At Orange County, Ford landed on a parallel taxiway...something that has been done by a lot of pilots over the years.

I know a full crew, as well as extra check airmen on board, that lined up a 747 along the runway edge at JFK one night and took off; a full crew all coordinating, along with 17 other aircraft directly alongside watching; nobody caught it, nobody addressed it, and it wasn't until the airplane landed elsewhere and a piece of runway light was embedded in the horizontal stabilizer, that the crew realized what had happened. It happens.

Missed taxi calls happen every day. Last night I was in the cockpit on a flight which was on a taxiway between two parallel runways. The controller cleared the aircraft to position and hod on the runway for which the crew had not prepared, meaning a runway change. A rapid effort to begin the process of changing runways took place, when the controller came back to correct herself, and stated the other runway. Again, putting everything back, checklists, running the box, checking configurations, etc. The pilot with his hand on the tiller began a right turn to go to the runway first cleared, the wrong runway. Law of primacy; what's heard first sticks. Other crew members advised wrong runway, turn left. Problem solved, and another example of why most professional cockpits have more than one crew member. These things happen. Frequently.

What's not heard in Ford's taxi tape is the full conversation or clearance; just enough is given to be out of context. Whether Ford was told to expect, hold short of a runway or taxiway, or other information, it may have been missed in a readback, cut off by other radio traffic, or any number of possibilities.

There seems to be a rush to dog pile on Ford. Three incidents. The man is a menace. Incident 1: forced landing, successfully made following loss of power, no injuries to persons or property other than himself. Not his fault, and certainly NOT a reason to jump on him as being incapable. He had an engine failure in a single engine airplane in a crowded area, and avoided hurting or killing anyone. That's a tribute to him. That's not a reason for taking someone's pilot certificate, celebrity or not.

Second incident, landed on a parallel taxiway. It happens a lot, but would be completely unheard of, except for his celebrity status. Seems to be a good enough reason for the world to stand and point fingers. The controller advised that the matter was being referred to the flight standards district office for review.

If you've never lined up for the wrong surface, such as a parallel taxiway, it may simply be that you're inexperienced in aviation. I've seen plenty of taxiways that were former runways, or that looked more like a runway than the runway that ran alongside it. Lining up on the wrong one is a lot easier than it seems, and there have been professional crews, and military crews, that have not only done that but landed at the wrong airport. I can think of several airports in that area that include warnings to not mistake the drag track nearby, for the runway. Those warnings aren't there because nobody has done it before...the warnings are there because people have mistaken them, and continue to do so.

As for missing a taxi clearance or mistaking one, it happens all the time. That doesn't justify it, but a missed or mistaken clearance is absolutely NO evidence of an incompetent pilot.

It's not at all that Ford hasn't "lost his license" because he's a celebrity. Not in the least. It's sensationalism (attempting to draw any connection between the events with zero evidence to support that), and the only reason that there's any public notice here is precisely because he's a celebrity. Point of fact, it's just the opposite of getting off scott free because of celebrity status.

Nothing to see here.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
...
Would this be akin to walking down range to fix/replace your target on an active range?

More like making your left turn in your car too tight and pulling into oncoming traffic while the light is red.

In your range analogy, only one person will likely be a casualty. Crossing an active runway means everyone could die. The biggest aviation accident in history happened with 2 747's on a foggy day occupying the same runway in Tenerife.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
...
Would this be akin to walking down range to fix/replace your target on an active range?

More like making your left turn in your car too tight and pulling into oncoming traffic while the light is red.

In your range analogy, only one person will likely be a casualty. Crossing an active runway means everyone could die. The biggest aviation accident in history happened with 2 747's on a foggy day occupying the same runway in Tenerife.

Or walking down range to inspect all the targets on an active range!

Yes, Tenerife was horrible.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
...
Would this be akin to walking down range to fix/replace your target on an active range?

More like making your left turn in your car too tight and pulling into oncoming traffic while the light is red.

In your range analogy, only one person will likely be a casualty. Crossing an active runway means everyone could die. The biggest aviation accident in history happened with 2 747's on a foggy day occupying the same runway in Tenerife.

I was hoping you or some other pilot would come on. I have two questions:

1) Will his license be at risk given his history?

2) Should it be?

Thanks.

I'm hoping V-Tail will post his perspective on this, being both an older pilot and having severe hearing loss. He'll probably have insightful thoughts to share on the subject.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:


Yes, Tenerife was horrible.

Tenerife was the result of multiple factors; an island location with a significantly elevated traffic density due to a bomb threat at Las Palmas, low weather in fog, no surveillance radar, and in particular, an authoritarian captain who would not listen to his first officer (and a first officer who was not assertive enough).

Vastly different than crossing a runway in visual conditions, with or without a clearance, at a small airport.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

I was hoping you or some other pilot would come on. I have two questions:

1) Will his license be at risk given his history?

2) Should it be?

Thanks.

His "history?" Unrelated events which have not resulted in certificate action (FAA actions that include suspension or revocation in Ford's case). There's no history here; one event involved an engine failure.

The other two events are common, daily occurrences. Is it possible that the FAA might take certificate action? Anything is possible. Not likelky, but anything is possible.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:


His "history?" Unrelated events which have not resulted in certificate action (FAA actions that include suspension or revocation in Ford's case). There's no history here; one event involved an engine failure.

The other two events are common, daily occurrences. Is it possible that the FAA might take certificate action? Anything is possible. Not likelky, but anything is possible.

I used the word "history" in an attempt to not make a judgment. I don't know if the things that have been discussed are, or should be disqualifying, and I was hoping someone with knowledge would offer their opinion. It seems to me that many offering their thoughts don't have any real expertise.

I know this is the internet and that expertise is hardly the sine qua non for having an opinion, but . . .

Thank you sns3. Very illuminating

quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo54:

I'm hoping V-Tail will post his perspective on this, being both an older pilot and having severe hearing loss. He'll probably have insightful thoughts to share on the subject.

Re my hearing loss, I actually hear better in the cockpit than in just about any other situation. I use a high quality, amplified headset, communication is easily understood.

Not sure what points you're asking for perspective on.

Missed communication? I have held a Commercial Pilot certificate for more than 55 years. I have missed a few radio calls, when I say "a few," I probably can't count that high. Not due to hearing impairment, this is a common occurrence and can happen for many reasons, like two (or more) people transmitting at the same time on the frequency, radio volume not turned up, attention on other things, the list goes on.

Failure to comply with taxi instructions? This has been a hot item for a dozen or more years. My Flight Instructor Certificate expires, and has to be renewed, every two years. Renewal can be done several ways, a very common way is to attend ongoing (recurrent) training, either in person or online. Considerable time is devoted to dealing with taxi instructions, instructions to hold short of runways, etc. In both the instructor renewal, and also in the knowledge tests ("written exams") for pilot certificates, there is discussion of runway incursions and how to prevent them. Airport diagrams may have indicators for "hot spots" -- areas on the airport where improper compliance with taxi instructions have caused problems.

Radio communication protocols for taxiing have changed since I (and Mr. Ford) started flying. In the old days, clearance to taxi to a runway implied permission to cross all intervening runways unless specific "hold short" instructions were given. Trying to solve the problem of runway incursion (taxiing onto or across a runway without permission), the new protocol requires specific permission to enter or cross every runway.

It's an ongoing problem, and with human error in the picture, there is no easy solution.

As guppy pointed out, Mr. Ford's previous mishaps are not necessarily indicators of poor airmanship. He had an engine failure, the airplane became a glider, and the problem was handled with no loss of life. In another incident he landed on a parallel taxiway instead the runway.

True confession time, one of my clients did that at Palm Beach International while I was on board the airplane. It was his airplane, he was flying, and all of the information that I had prior to the flight indicated that he would be PIC (Pilot In Command). Little did I know that he was flying with an expired medical certificate, meaning he could not be PIC, and therefore, unbeknownst to me, I was the PIC. He landed on a taxiway that was parallel to, and in between, the two east-west runways at PBI. Since I thought that he was PIC, I was not paying a lot of attention (I was watching a 767 depart from another runway), and when I glanced forward, just before touchdown, I realized that the centerline in front of us was yellow (taxiway) instead of white (runway). OOPS! It did not help that the taxiway that we landed on was much longer and wider thant the runway that we were supposed to use, one of the reasons that I did not catch the error quickly enough.

Bottom line, we all make mistakes. Fortunately, most of these mistakes are not life threatening.

If an FAA inspector thinks it necessary, Mr. Ford will be invited to tak a "709 ride." The "709" refers to a section of the regulations that deals with what is basically a flight test to re-examine a pilot to determine his / her competence to continue to fly.

When something like this happens it is referred to the local Flight Standards District Office, basically the DMV. The inspector has some latitude in how to proceed. They can issue a warning letter, require additional training with an instructor, or as V Tail mentioned the 709 ride with an FAA inspector to verify competency. Outright revoking someone's certificate is a more serious and involved process and is subject to appeal with the NTSB if the pilot chooses to do so. There is no "points" system or defined set of parameters that determine the outcome in cases like this.