quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:
I've flown with Ford in his Beaver and our C185 in and out of some challenging Idaho backcountry strips; the man is a good stick.

‘Was’ a good stick. Anyone who hasn’t seen it should go to YouTube and watch the video of the guy overflying the American Airlines plane.

Are you a pilot PowerSurge?

I watched the video, and it doesn't look like he overflew. Close, but no cigar. In fact, I'm not sure I haven't been closer to airliners holding short to taxi across 29 at San Jose while I landed on it (as cleared).

While landing on the taxiway was clearly a pilot deviation, and it sounds like the FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) looked into it, it doesn't sound like they found a safety of flight issue.

I'm sure that FSDO will look into this one too. They may or may not feel action is necessary. I'm willing to trust their judgement, particularly since they will have more information when making that judgement than a bunch of us flailing away at keyboards.

^^^ In this video he’s either over the plane or it’s pretty damn close. You can even see the shadow go over the fuselage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRBqgmsxC8Q

In this article it even mentions he overflew the plane and also other mishaps he’s had: https://www.npr.org/sections/t...estigation-concludes

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^ In this video he’s either over the plane or it’s pretty damn close. You can even see the shadow go over the fuselage.

You know how shadows work, right? They are only directly below the airplane when the sun is directly above. I almost had a heart attack one day when (while flying a Cessna 140) I saw the shadow of a C5 coming off of Travis on an apparent collision course with my shadow. A little panicked looking reviewed him a lot lower and significantly offset.

quote:

In this article it even mentions he overflew the plane and also other mishaps he’s had:

Yes, and in that article it says:

quote:

The Federal Aviation Administration determined at the conclusion of its inquiry that "no administrative or enforcement action was warranted," Ford's lawyer, Stephen Hofer said in a statement. "Mr. Ford retains his pilot's certificate without restriction."

which would tend to indicated that the folks who are responsible for regulating aviation in this country investigated and determined that he was fit to keep flying.

I'll ask again PowerSurge, are you a pilot?

I know that different folks with different experiences have different comfort levels. That's fine. It is also fine for reasonable folks to disagree even when presented with the same information.

As I said way back on page one, it may be that he isn't taking his flying seriously enough and needs a bit of a spanking and/or a revalidation ride. It may also be that he has done a Joe Biden and is no longer capable of the sustained focus required to operate safely in the NAS (National Airspace System). We don't have that information. We employ the FAA to regulate and investigate this type of thing. Maybe we ought to let them do that.

Wait, the shadows were close? That changes everything.

The FAA doesn't regulate shadow proximity, however, nor is it relevant.

Taxiway Lima, on which the 737 was located, is designated as a "hotspot" on surface diagrams, meaning that it's an area where an incursion is highly probable. In fact, it's marked HS-1, or the first, of three hot spots listed for that field.

It's designated as such because of landing traffic, and the intersection of taxiway Lima, which leads to runway 20 Right, and crosses runway 20 Left. 20L is strictly a general aviation runway, and is very short, at just under 2,900'. Directly parallel to 20L is taxiway Charlie, which appears much like a runway, especially considering that 20L is narrower than most runways, at 75' wide.

The approach to land on runway 20L is not straight-in. Because both runways (20L, 20R) are parallel and close, aircraft approaching to land on 20L are to fly at a fifteen degree angle. This is for wake turbulence and for separation from straight-in instrument traffic traffic on 20R.

Aircraft arriving to runway 20L remain at or above 300'. A 3 degree glidepath to runway 20L, which has a displaced threshold (lands farther down the runway than at the beginning), has a threshold crossing height of 72'. This is considerably higher than most runways served by airliners, which are typically 50' or so. This means that aircraft landing on 20L stay higher longer, and land farther down the runway.

Approaching runway 20L at a 15 degree angle to the runway also means that the first strip of pavement one sees one's self lined up with is not the runway, but the taxiway. Additionally, because commercial traffic may be holding short of the runway on taxiway Lima, and may be holding short of runway 20L on Lima, landing with airline aircraft head of, and on either side of landing general aviation traffic is common. Those who operate or have operated out of SNA will know this.

The FAA reviewed Ford's landing and elected not to proceed with disciplinary action. Non pilots seem much quicker to judge based on a youtube video.



TMZ, which sells entertainment, and which is the source for the original post, is also the source for the picture above. TMZ identified the wrong taxiway, and shows two airline aircraft on the taxiway for emphasis...and yet selected the wrong one. That's taxiway Alpha. What they didn't identify is the actual taxiway Charlie, which is between runway 20L and Alpha. Charlie has a larger area and is more obvious than 20L.

Yeah, I know how shadows work. Are you two sure that you do? You two need to watch the tmz video again. Make a note of the shadow of the plane in the foreground facing the camera, the American 737 and Ford’s plane. And then, freeze the video when the shadow is on the airliner. Pay particular attention to the placement of the shadow and the location of Ford’s plane with regards to its position.

Have a great day!

This thread is now a pissing match.

Ok, not a pilot then. Not flown into SNA?

The airport sees 65% general aviation traffic, and total over 26,000 aircraft operations a month. It's a small airport. It's a busy place. The taxiway adjacent to the runway is larger and longer than runway 20L.

Non pilot observation, with no experience operating at SNA, is probably a lot more keen than the FAA, which investigated the matter.

I was based at SNA for years, and have landed on on both runways hundreds of times; depending upon where I was inbound from and IFR or VFR.

Yes, he fucked up, but I didn't see any imminent danger to the Boeing or Ford's Husky. I've flown LOTS closer to aircraft holding short many times.

SNA is watched like a hawk; I had an alleged Class C incursion there by about 100 yards, and got a tower talk as well as the FSDO up my ass. Nothing came of it, but they investigate everything •very thoroughly•

I stand by my assertion Ford ia a good stick - did you guys notice he's typed in a Slowtation as well as the CE-680?

For fucks sake, he's got 5,000 + hours, about the same as me, and you don't fly 5,000 hours without making a few mistakes and/or bad decisions. You learn from them and move on...

"He's a menace to himself and everything else in the air... yes, birds too."

I'm a general aviation guy. I don't have any turf. I am defending no one.

You want him crucified, fine. Explain that to the FAA, who saw it otherwise, following an investigation. The FAA's view counts. Mine doesn't. Neither does yours. But the FAA's does, and the FAA's position following the SNA landing was to not take action against Ford.

You can argue that until you're blue in the face, using youtube videos and entertainment news articles, and other such authoritative, official subject material.

You said you flew into SNA. Are you a pilot?

Did you land on 20L?

It's superfluous, really; you're not FAA, are you? The matter has already been addressed by the FAA. Perhaps you could have warned them.

---Hmm. The poster to whom I was responding removed his post by the time I posted. The reply is still valid.

If this has already been mentioned I apologize in advance. Does anyone know the specifics on his license?...multi, commercial, ATP or what? I will admit I have had my fair share of mistakes (tower read backs, wrong taxiway at an unfamiliar airfield) but depending on how his ticket is punched his airman medical cert will have different renewal periods. I dont fly corporate anymore but always get a first class just to know I can still do it. Not to throw stones but maybe ole Han's situational awareness is not what it used to be and he has a doctor who just checks the boxes on his medical renewal b/c of who Han is. There a number of factors to be considered beyond just the three dimensional, multi-tasking environment that flying can be at times. It might interesting just to see the chronology and distance between his mistakes to see if a pattern is forming and then render a decision but this will probably never happen. I wonder when his last checkride was. But I also agree with @aileron in that I hope Harrison is learning from these mistakes and making something positive out of them.

Well I guess I got to explain it to you guppy. There is a claim that he got special treatment because he was Han Solo. Feel free to ignore that because of course you will. A govt entity gave him a pass which never never happens to celebrities.

Answer honestly. If in a two year span you crossed an active taxiway and overflew (yes he did) an airliner to land on a taxiway would you, personally, be fucking worried as hell about certificate action. The answer is of course you would. And yes, I have flown into SNA a bunch in 737’s.

He’s not flying out of grass strips. He’s flying out of busy airports with lots of jets and passenger airliners and he’s starting to make mistakes. Deadly ones. Sure, you can downplay it. But you shouldn’t.

To answer the guy above, he will never lose his medical by a Dr. He can find an AME who will pass him. We all know this.

Sadly he will find an AME that will continue to grant him his medical and it will probably take something horrific to get his ticket yanked. I pray that latter doesnt happen but if it does I hope it is a single vehicle accident.

You don’t have to be Han Solo to find an AME who will sign you off when you shouldn’t be flying. I know 2 AMEs who push paper. I’m sure I could easily find more.

I took my wife to one a decade or more ago. Promised her a shopping trip after it was over. She was appalled. She thought we should report him for how shoddy the exam was. I just laughed and explained we have real Dr’s for actual issues and then there are flight docs. Never cross streams.

I also know plenty of people who have cumulatively done a lot worse than land on a taxiway at a busy airport and disregard hold short instructions who are still flying.

I’m not defending the guy, simply stating that he’s not necessarily getting celebrity treatment.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I took my wife to one a decade or more ago. Promised her a shopping trip after it was over. She was appalled. She thought we should report him for how shoddy the exam was. I just laughed and explained we have real Dr’s for actual issues and then there are flight docs. Never cross streams.

Haha true. I once had an old (over 75) AME grab my leg and tell me I looked healthy. That was the extent of his exam. Granted, that was for a 3rd class.

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:
I stand by my assertion Ford ia a good stick - did you guys notice he's typed in a Slowtation as well as the CE-680?

I don’t disagree with anything you said, except I thought the 525 was the CJ and the 500 was the slowtation, aka the only jet to ever get a bird strike from the rear.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
...
Would this be akin to walking down range to fix/replace your target on an active range?

More like making your left turn in your car too tight and pulling into oncoming traffic while the light is red.

In your range analogy, only one person will likely be a casualty. Crossing an active runway means everyone could die. The biggest aviation accident in history happened with 2 747's on a foggy day occupying the same runway in Tenerife.

Which also involved the use of "okay" which has no place in aviation communication. This horse has been beaten and is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Well I guess I got to explain it to you guppy.

Awesome. The teacher is in. Fire away.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
There is a claim that he got special treatment because he was Han Solo. Feel free to ignore that because of course you will.

Ignore it? I addressed it, as did others. Read.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
A govt entity gave him a pass which never never happens to celebrities.

So says you. Back it up. Go ahead, teach. School me. Show me the money. Prove it. Don't let me down, teach. You can prove this, can't you?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Answer honestly. If in a two year span you crossed an active taxiway and overflew (yes he did) an airliner to land on a taxiway would you, personally, be fucking worried as hell about certificate action. The answer is of course you would.

Did you just ask me to answer honestly, then tell me what I was going to say? You sure did, teacher. Don't do that. Don't put words in my mouth. I speak for myself. Really well.

In a two-year span, would I be worried? Good god, you have no idea, do you?

In a two year span...which two years? Not so long ago I found myself flying down main street in a Nevada town that was on fire, below the power lines. Crossed active runways? Yes. Landed on taxiways? Yes.

Ford didn't actually overfly an airliner, but I've overflown them, and been overflown, and in neither case was I worried for myself, my certificate, or anyone else's safety because safety wasn't compromised.

In the last two weeks I've crossed active runways in front of landing traffic twice; once in Korea, once in Malaysia.

No, I'm not worried about my certificate, but that's irrelevant. Ford's recent action may or may not garner enforcement, or administrative action (do you know the difference?), but certainly his incident at SNA didn't, and won't. It's been handled and closed. Are you an inspector in California, or simply talking out your backside about what the FAA did, or didn't do with that investigation? You're certainly an expert...but how? Were you there? Did you do the investigation? Or did you watch a youtube video and grow expertise?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
And yes, I have flown into SNA a bunch in 737’s.

As a pilot, or passenger? You've been asked. You can answer, teacher. You do have the experience to be the teacher, seeing as you're schooling me, right? Are you qualified? It's a reasonable question.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
He’s not flying out of grass strips.

He's flying into general aviation airports and was cleared to land on a general aviation runway with cannot be used by airline aircraft. Or turbojets. It's too short. 65% of the flight operations and movements at SNA are general aviation. It's a general aviation airport with airline service.

Hawthorne is very much a general aviation airport. Ever flown there?

As for crossing that runway, with an airplane still in the air, doing a touch and go landing, and the husky crossing at the departure end, there was never a collision hazard. There was an incursion, there was a potential violation, which is one of the most common violations that the FAA investigates and a hot button topic (and the reason that the hot spot is charged at SNA where Ford landed, and has been for some time, incidentally).

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:

To answer the guy above, he will never lose his medical by a Dr. He can find an AME who will pass him. We all know this.

You're aware, as an experienced 737 type rated pilot who has operated regularly from SNA, and as an instructor, that a medical isn't required, if Ford doesn't want to bother getting one. Right?