quote:

How much longer must this mess go on? I thought Trump was finally going to be able to knock some heads and get them to stop but so far it's not happening.

The war will end when one of the two major player heads is no longer in charge of his side.

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The above is from Tass, the Russian news agency. I could post dozens of links that describe all kinds of various victories by Ukrainian forces. If I did I would be skewered by many who would say you can't believe anything from the Ukrainians.

Yep.

Much (Most?) of what's reported/promoted about this conflict is simply propaganda...It's all either Pro-Ukraine propaganda, Pro-Russian propaganda, propaganda promoted by the West/NATO, so it's all suspect until confirmed. Basically, you can find whatever propaganda that pleases you. It's tiring...

This is what needs to be done with those turds.



Just fucking chuck it all. Let them fight it out.

I'm surprised that no one is making much of a deal about this:

I don't get it...
Why would Europe want to commit suicide defending Ukraine?
Someone commented earlier that since the illegals won’t get drafted, they speculated the EU’s plan could be to send the native born men to be eliminated in the war. Then the conquering of Europe will be complete.

EU Proposes Suspending Customs and Duty Enforcement During War Preparations Against Russia

When Europe goes to war with Russia, they will not require the military to fill out customs declarations as they cross borders within the EU.

Tanks, missiles, artillery and most combat weapons could be exempt from EU customs declarations if the plan by Brussels moves forward.

Additionally, under the proposal most drivers of military equipment may even be permitted to exceed the limits on driving times and rest periods, should the fight against Russia require extended physical effort.

The newly proposed objective is to empower European soldiers to make independent decisions without having to fill out the customary paperwork, requiring prior approval from the European Commission before affixing their bayonets. The EU wants to work out the details before they begin military operations against the Russian Federation.

EUROPE – […] The communication notes that some countries require 45 days of advance notice before allowing military equipment to cross their territory. “Significant barriers to effective military mobility in the EU persist,” the communication notes. “National rules are often divergent, fragmented and non-harmonised.”

[…] “We need to move fast. We need to move faster than what Europe is used to or is expecting to,” Tzitzikostas said, saying the target is to get the basics in place by 2030.

German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius warned over the weekend that Russia may be capable of launching an attack on a NATO member state as early as 2028-2029.

If approved, EMERS would also grant derogations from standard customs and transport rules, including limits on driving times and rest periods for civilian operators, as well as faster, dedicated customs procedures under a specific EU protocol.

[…] To ensure coordination on the ground, each member state will appoint a national coordinator for military transport, serving as a single contact point for permissions, notifications and crisis response. (read more)

I would not be too concerned about the capabilities of Europe to confront Russian troops. It appears there are now multiple discussions within the EU proposing to stop tracking carbon footprints for soldiers during those times of the day when maximum energy expenditure would be needed.

The French and German military leadership are against lifting the climate rules; however, the pressure from the U.S. within NATO appears to be shifting the overall sentiment.

While negotiations are still underway about permitting the burning of fossil fuels for meal preparation in the field, thankfully there are military consultants beginning to convince Brussels leadership that soldiers making coffee in forward operating positions should be permitted regardless of emissions.

https://theconservativetreehou...-russia/#more-278033

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While negotiations are still underway about permitting the burning of fossil fuels for meal preparation in the field, thankfully there are military consultants beginning to convince Brussels leadership that soldiers making coffee in forward operating positions should be permitted regardless of emissions.

Is this the Babylon Bee?? These sappy cunt, man buns are doomed.

quote:

Is this the Babylon Bee?? These sappy cunt, man buns are doomed.

Yes, he's making fun of them.

Nice to see Trunp putting maximum pressure on Ukraine and its enablers to surrender by Thanksgiving or face severe consequences. I don't expect a Nobel peace prize anytime soon but this may open up the possibility of an alliance with Russia and by proxy North Korea and Iran vs any future Chinese aggression.

I swear, one day I would love to understand the world that Carpentermaass84 lives in, because it isn’t this planet.

A union with North Korea and Iran??

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I swear, one day I would love to understand the world that Carpentermaass84 lives in, because it isn’t this planet.

A union with North Korea and Iran??

By proxy, NOT direct. They are Russia's closest allies (other than us within a few months if this all pans out). The longterm play here is to pull Russia away from China.

Zelenskyy Says Ukraine Faces ‘Difficult’ Crossroads as It Weighs Trump’s 28-Point Peace Plan
Zelenskyy said Ukraine may face a choice between ‘loss of dignity’ or losing key U.S. support.


Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said on Nov. 21 that his country is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history,” using a nationally televised address to say that Kyiv is under extraordinary pressure to accept a 28-point U.S. peace proposal that would remake Ukraine’s security posture, redraw territorial lines, and permanently bar NATO membership.

Zelenskyy said Ukraine is under “the heaviest pressure we have faced,” telling his compatriots that the country may be pushed toward adopting an agreement that could mean accepting hard-to-stomach terms to secure peace.
“Either a loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner,” he said, referring to the United States.

“Either accepting a difficult 28-point plan, or entering an extremely hard winter—the hardest yet—with further risks beyond it. A life without freedom, without dignity, without justice.”

Zelenskyy said he would offer alternatives to some of the most contentious points of the 28-point proposal in round-the-clock talks with the United States and Europe, while vowing not to betray his oath to defend Ukraine’s independence.

“Among all the points of the plan, at least two must not be overlooked—Ukrainian dignity and Ukrainian freedom,” he said.

“We must do everything so that what happens next is the end of the war—and not the end of Ukraine.”

While details of the 28-point plan have not been released publicly, the proposal itself has been confirmed by the Trump administration. White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt told The Epoch Times in a statement that the framework was designed to provide “full security guarantees and deterrence for Ukraine, Europe, and Russia” and to create “financial opportunities for Ukraine to rebuild, and for Russia to rejoin the global economy.”

“This plan was crafted to reflect the realities of the situation, after years of a devastating war, to find the best win-win scenario, where both parties gain more than they must give,” Leavitt said.

A delegation of senior U.S. military officials met with Zelenskyy in Kyiv on Nov. 20 to discuss steps toward a peace deal.

The U.S. ambassador in Kyiv and the Army public affairs chief traveling with the delegation described the meetings with Ukrainian officials as a success, telling Reuters the United States is seeking an “aggressive timeline” for Kyiv to sign off on the agreement.

President Donald Trump himself appeared to confirm that timeline during an interview on Brian Kilmeade’s radio program, calling next Thursday—Thanksgiving—an appropriate target date for Zelenskyy to accept the ceasefire framework.

“I’ve had a lot of deadlines, but if things are working well, you tend to extend the deadlines,” Trump said. “But Thursday ... we think is an appropriate time.”
What’s in the 28-Point Plan?
While the full text of the proposal has not been officially released, leaked drafts circulated among Ukrainian lawmakers and published by The Associated Press outline a sweeping set of obligations and concessions.
The plan was drafted by Special Envoy for Peace Missions Steve Witkoff and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who, according to the White House, worked on the framework “quietly” for the past month.
The first points affirm Ukraine’s sovereignty and call for a comprehensive non-aggression pact between Ukraine, Russia, and Europe, alongside an expectation that Russia will halt military aggression against its neighbors.

A difficult-to-stomach requirement for Kyiv is that Ukraine permanently abandon its NATO aspirations by embedding neutrality into its constitution, while NATO formally codifies that it will never admit Ukraine in the future.

The plan would also cap Ukraine’s armed forces at 600,000 troops and require Kyiv to accept Russia’s de-facto control over Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. The front line in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia would be frozen, meaning Kyiv would acknowledge Moscow’s occupation along current positions. Ukraine would, however, retain the possibility of joining the European Union if it meets accession criteria.

Economically, the framework envisions a large-scale reconstruction program—funded by $100 billion in European contributions and another $100 billion from frozen Russian assets—and a pathway for Russia to rejoin the global economy, including a return to the G8. Sanctions on Moscow would be lifted in phases tied to compliance.

A senior U.S. official told The Epoch Times that the 28-point peace plan was drafted after consultations with Rustem Umerov, secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, and that he had agreed to a majority of the points and presented it to Zelenskyy.

Umerov has offered a more nuanced characterization of the meeting, saying in a statement on Telegram that his role during the discussions with U.S. officials was “purely technical” and he had no authority to approve any element of the proposal. He added in a follow-up post that consultations continue in Kyiv over the 28-point peace plan.
“We discussed approaches to restoring a just peace, the sequence of next steps, and realistic formats for further dialogue,” Umerov said.

“Ukraine is carefully studying every proposal from our partners and clearly articulating its own position. No decisions exist—or can exist—beyond the limits of our sovereignty, the security of our people, and our red lines.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday weighed in on the U.S. proposal for peace in Ukraine, telling senior officials in televised comments that the plan could be the basis for a resolution of the conflict.

“I believe that it can be used as the basis for a final peaceful settlement,” Putin said, adding that Moscow has seen the plan but that it has not yet been discussed in detail with Russia.

Putin said Russian forces are continuing their advance in Ukraine and will continue to press forward unless Ukraine agrees to a peace deal.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/...e6iEUlcaD3apF7IVE%3D

quote:

Originally posted by Carpentermaass84:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I swear, one day I would love to understand the world that Carpentermaass84 lives in, because it isn’t this planet.

A union with North Korea and Iran??

By proxy, NOT direct. They are Russia's closest allies (other than us within a few months if this all pans out). The longterm play here is to pull Russia away from China.

Read what you just wrote; you are implying that we would be a closer ally to Russia than North Korea and Iran… within a few months?

Even if the planets aligned, Putin accepted a peace deal with Ukraine and even made absolutely magnanimous reparations and went on a world peace/love tour, the US wouldn’t possibly enter an alliance with Russia for at least a decade, if not more.

Please come back to the real world.

Vance Blasts Critics Of Trump's Ukraine Peace Plan As "Living In A Fantasy Land"

As expected, President Trump's 28-point peace plan has quickly seen plenty of pushback in Europe, given it is the first ever such US proposal to focus on Ukraine giving up land. Specifically Crimea, and most of Luhansk and Donetsk would be placed under "de facto" Russian control.

While Moscow would be made to direct $100 billion in frozen assets to Ukrainian reconstruction, sanctions on Russia would be dropped and it would be welcomed back into the global economy. But hawks want to see Russia 'punished' and are pressing to give Ukraine military support for as long as it takes to push Russian forces out of the east.
Via BBC

Vice President J.D. Vance is calling on these hawks to come back to reality. In a social media post he began by outlining that the plan contains the following elements for a successful peace agreement: "1) Stop the killing while preserving Ukrainian sovereignty. 2) Be acceptable to both Russia and Ukraine. 3) Maximize the chances the war doesn’t restart."

"Every criticism of the peace framework the administration is working on either misunderstands the framework or misstates some critical reality on the ground," he continued on X.

He then called out fanatical anti-Russia hawks for living in fantasy land...

“There is a fantasy that if we just give more money, more weapons, or more sanctions, victory is at hand,” the vice president continued. “Peace won’t be made by failed diplomats or politicians living in a fantasy land. It might be made by smart people living in the real world.”

The sharp rebuke to some European leaders as well as critics in the United States came just ahead of expected talks in Geneva on Sunday.

Axios is reporting the talks to be held on Sunday, with the Europeans and Ukrainians will be led by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and will include White House envoy Steve Witkoff and Army Secretary Dan Driscoll.

Driscoll was in Kiev as the first to sit down with President Zelensky and pitch it. Zelensky's response was to describe a heavy situation where Ukraine may have to either keep its dignity or risk losing an important ally. The US is calling for a deadline to sign the deal of next Thursday, or Thanksgiving Day in the United States.

A US official has told Axios, "We're continuing to work with the Ukrainians to make this the best deal for them. We can't speak to ... their position, but the deal has — and always has been — a collaboration between the U.S., Ukrainians and the Russians."

Zelensky himself spoke truth back March 2022: "There are those in the West who don't mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine & comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives."

And another anonymous source said, "The talks in Geneva show how much the Trump administration is engaging with all parties on the peace plan for Ukraine and the doubters claiming otherwise are flat out wrong."

President Trump appears ready to 'cut off' intelligence-sharing and weapons for Ukraine, saying Saturday that "Zelensky can keep fighting his heart out if he rejects the plan."

Meanwhile EU leaders preparing for a fight with the Trump White House over Ukraine's future path...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...-living-fantasy-land

It’s like Europe would have to finally face all their own self inflicted problems if the Ukraine War was ended.

Witkoff Heads To Moscow With Revised Ukraine Peace Plan After Tense Miami Meeting Focused On Borders

Both sides kept their comments somewhat vague after the US and Ukrainian delegations met in Miami on Sunday to discuss a potential outline for a peace deal to end the war with Russia. One of the Ukrainian delegates called it "intense but not negative." Axios wrote, "After an hour in a wider format, the meeting narrowed to three officials from each side — with the line of territorial control virtually the only issue discussed, according to the two Ukrainian officials."

The American side which was led Secretary of State Marco Rubio cited simply that there’s "more work to be done," including more direct engagement with Russia, also as Steve Witkoff is set to travel to Moscow this week to meet with President Vladimir Putin. Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law, also attended the talks, despite not actually having an official position in the Trump administration. Axios reports some of the details gleaned thus far as follows:

Negotiations between the U.S. and Ukraine on Sunday focused on where the de facto border with Russia would be drawn under a peace deal, two Ukrainian officials tell Axios. They described the five-hour meeting as "difficult" and "intense," but productive.

Rubio said in the immediate aftermath of the meeting, "We had another very productive session, building off Geneva, building off the events of this week. As I told you earlier this morning, our goal here is to end the war, but it's more than just to end the war. We don't just want to end the war. We also want to help Ukraine be safe forever, so never again will they face another invasion."

This presumably is a reference to security guarantees, which were outlined in the Trump-proposed plan and likened to Article 5-like protections, something which Moscow is likely to reject if it does actually invite the possibility of future NATO military intervention.

Rubio is still only emphasizing laying the "groundwork" at this late stage. "And so this is comprehensive, what we're working on here today. It's not just about the terms that end fighting. It's about also the terms that set up Ukraine for long-term prosperity. I thought we started laying the groundwork for that, most certainly in Geneva," he described.

As for the degree to which the Zelensky government is actually on board, Rubio acknowledged, "I think there is a shared vision here that this is not just about ending the war, which is very important. It is about securing Ukraine's future, a future that we hope will be more prosperous than it's ever been."

Amid the typical vagueness present in such post-meeting comments, Rubio did note that progress was made. "I think additional progress was made, and we continue to be realistic about how difficult this is, but optimistic, particularly given the fact that as we've made progress," he said. But a key question remains the degree to which the Ukrainians finally expressed willingness to make territorial concessions in the Donbass and Crimea.

The Ukrainian delegation was led by Rustem Umerov, the secretary of the Ukrainian National Security Council, after Andriy Yermak, who was until Friday Zelensky's top aide and chief negotiator, resigned - or rather was pressured out -following a police raid on his home by anti-corruption investigators. He has since dramatically announce that he has gone to the front lines. Some say he is hiding from investigators, which can't reach him in a military zone.

Umerov began his post-meeting remarks, "Once again, we are grateful to American people, American leadership and great team with State Secretary Rubio, Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner for their tremendous work with us. Our objective is prosperous, strong Ukraine. We were discussing about the future of Ukraine."

He continued, without tipping his cards, "We worked. We already had a successful meeting in Geneva, and today, we continue this success. So at the moment, this meeting was productive and successful."

So territorial concessions and security guarantees remain the central sticking points, with many analysts saying now that Umerov is running point, and with Yermak pushed aside, President Trump's vision for bringing an end to the war could be more easily accomplished.

At this moment, US officials say Witkoff is expected to submit updated documents in his upcoming meeting with President Putin that incorporate the latest talks and revisions that were made with Kiev and European leaders.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...iami-meeting-focused

The Moscow Meetings: Trump's special envoy Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner just met with Putin. What's actually in the revised peace plan? Why is Europe panicking? And what does Zelensky's frantic diplomatic tour tell us about Ukraine's position?

I like watching Zelensky squirm. This entire war is a result of him refusing to surrender. One man's pride doomed millions of men. The takeaway from the Moscow visit is that Ukraine's counter demands have zero weight (Putin doesn't even view their government as legitimate) and they should not be a part of negotiations.

quote:

Why would Europe want to commit suicide defending Ukraine?

Europe doesn't see it that way. If they come up with an agreement that freezes the current borders (along with a cease fire), or even if Ukraine gives up some land that Russia did not win on the battlefield (which they never will), what are the chances that Russia won't attack again within 10 years. I say close to zero. That's what almost all of Europe thinks too. The thinking is better to make a stand here and now.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union fell apart in exchange for promises from the U.S. and Europe to defend them if attacked. How did that work out for Ukraine? Not so good. The Russians have continued to send drones over Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and other countries including Finland. They recently sabotaged a rail line in Poland. Latvia and Lithuania have begun constructing significant numbers of anti tank obstacles on their border with Russia in an attempt to slow down any invasion.

Putin does not see Ukraine as a separate country. The same applies to Latvia and Lithuania. His intention is to reassemble the Soviet empire.

Why should Zelensky surrender? Russia has abducted over 20,000 Ukrainian children. They continue to target apartment buildings, schools, hospitals and other non military targets. As President Reagan said, they are the evil empire. A surrender now would embolden Putin to continue his war on other western countries.

You can safely ignore the video without Putin here, but this seems like a man who wants peace and likes Trumps plan for it.

https://x.com/RT_com/status/1996278085977555212?s=09