Rey, my apologies for coming across in the way I did. Sometimes tone and inflection do not convey properly in writing, and I confess that being sleep deprived (newborn) doesn’t help!

Let me parse out my response:

Federal loan “forgiveness” is not that easy to achieve, as there are very stringent (and vague) requirements, depending if you are using the IBR, PAYE or PSLF program.

They all vary, but most require a period of service in a government occupation (lawyer, nurse, teacher etc) for a period of time (10/20/25 years) at which point the loan is forgiven.

There are several catches and issues, however. First, only Federal loans are eligible, which is a minor fraction of the market: http://www.privatestudentloanf...ent-loan-market.html

Second, under some programs there is a tax liability at the moment of forgiveness, which is known in the field as the “tax bomb”. The amount forgiven is treated as income, and is taxed accordingly. Here’s an example, assuming someone takes out a $100k loan under IBR this year, makes $55k with an annual salary increase of 2%, the amount forgiven would be $124k in year 20. The tax implication would be roughly $30k that year, which is a full third of the original loan!

https://studentloanhero.com/ca...epayment-calculator/

I should have elaborated on forgiveness, and I do apologize again. I believe that it’s an ethical gray area, as taxpayers are on the hook for your debt, but I admit to be very biased in this. I care deeply about this, as those most affected are the sons and daughters of middle America and legal immigrants, those who are the first in their families to graduate and have no idea that college is not the entry into the working world that it was in the past.

I am saving heavily for my 3 children to go to college. What bugs me about this conversation (nationally) is that most of the solutions center around allowing those in trouble to cut loose their debt, or to make more grants for low income families etc.

What about high income families? No one cares about high income folks? My wife and I both have post graduate degrees. We assume our children will likely pursue post graduate degrees. We are trying to save well over $350 k per child for their college!!!!!!!

Think about that, it's suffocating!

If we don't stop the insanity of lending an 18 year old $200k for a social justice degree, we will never stop the costs of college from rising.

All it will do is ensure that low income families who apply for federal grants can go to college. Wealthy folks can't afford this crap now. All that will happen is that high income families won't be able to pay and won't qualify for any assistance. "free college" will only mean the tax payers will pay too much for all this BS.

I make a very good living and can barely save to put my kids through college. This isn't about making college available to those of limited means. It's about making college available period. I can barely afford this and will still have heartache when the time comes. I can't imagine I will have all the money saved I will need. It's mission impossible.

The answer isn't forging loans or making more grants available. The only answer is to stop loaning kids all this money! It's the only way.

If an 18 year old could only get a maximum of $20k for his college tuition (total, not per year), you'd see all this insanity stop.

I see a lot of discussion about how to pay off huge student loan debt. Little discussion of why the college education costs so damned much in this day and age.

Maybe, just maybe, if these "businesses" were actually run like businesses things would not be so damned expensive. I recall seeing one example of the "waste" that seems to be rampant in our so-called places of higher learning.

When I was in college (graduate in 1966 at age 28)we had no debt other than a house payment. And my pay was about $700 per month. All that schooling while working 60+ hours per week.

Got an MBA, while working 70+ hours per week.

My GI bill payment was $300 per month, which paid for tuition and books. After the first month and a half that was extra money for our house payments, etc.

IMO, this whole issue started when these "institutions" of higher learning figured out that they could charge whatever they wanted because gubbermint was going to front the money.

The real issue should be why the hell so much money is provided to these "institutions".

In my world management always kept a watchful eye on expenditures with some painful results if one screwed up and cost extra.

I am reminded of a statement made by a young boy who had asked to see a LEO's badge. When asked why he had asked to see the badge his response was, "Because I can!"

Why do the so-called institutions of higher learning demand so much (for shitty service)?

Because they can, and gubbermint is making it very easy for them.

TEXAS VETERANS....

I don't believe this is applicable to college debt already incurred but it would interest any veterans and/or thier children that has served in the military, plan to or those that know someone that could possibly take advantage. It's called the Hazelwood Act and it provides qualified Veterans, spouses, and dependent children with an education benefit of up to 150 hours of tuition exemption, including most fee charges, at public institutions of higher education in Texas. This does NOT include living expenses, books, or supply fees.

My Dad discovered this program a few years back but unfortunately to late for me or my siblings to take advantage. I try to spread the word whenever I can as it's an awesome, yet little known, benefit for Texas veterans.

I was SHOCKED at how much my alma mater now costs, but it's not surprising since they built all this fancy new crap since I graduated in 1997. I'm talking all sots of amenities like high-end fitness centers and Olympic pools and fancy dining options and beautiful townhouses instead of crappy dorms. None of that existed when I was there, and they now pay for ONE SEMESTER what I paid for ONE YEAR.

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
I see a lot of discussion about how to pay off huge student loan debt. Little discussion of why the college education costs so damned much in this day and age.

Maybe, just maybe, if these "businesses" were actually run like businesses things would not be so damned expensive. I recall seeing one example of the "waste" that seems to be rampant in our so-called places of higher learning.

Here's one of the things I picked up from my MBA: how many businesses tell you

quote:

You want our product? Tell me how much you make. And, not only that, tell me how much money your parents make. Oh, and by the way, we want documented proof by way of your income tax records.

Then, we'll tell you how much it's going to cost you.

Wouldn't anyone want a business like that which gets to charge it's prices based on how much they can shake the customers and any co-signers?

“Peace studies”, broadcasting, fine arts, marketing... say no more.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Regardless of how anyone feels about this issue, I can assure you it's financially crippling my generation which in the long run will drive the economy down over all, perhaps to a crash we'll not recover from as long as these loans remain basically undismissable.

Do you have student loans yourself? Because if you think they're not "dismissable," you haven't made much effort researching the topic.

There are various programs that recalculate payment terms based on your income or profession. And after a certain amount of years (25 or 30) the remaining balance gets dismissed.

Federal loans only, not private, parent or refinanced loans.

It’s not as easy as you think, and we did begin with over $400k in loans. They will be all paid off in full, none of this forgiveness crap.

I believe what Fender is referring to is that student loan debt can not be discharged through bankruptcy. In many respects, it is the modern day equivalent to indentured servitude.

I was asking FenderBender.

And since the term "dismissable" was used, I don't see why "this forgiveness crap" would be excluded. It may be a matter of degrees but I would find it less malodorous to take advantage of a loan forgiveness program than bankruptcy.

And I know it's as easy as I think. The requirements may be stringent as requiring you show the numbers that you actually are financially struggling to service the student loan or that you are working in a public service job for at least 10 years as a firefighter, teacher, military personnel and nurse, among others.

The loan forgiveness comes after at least 25 years after qualifying each year for the reduced payment program.

I was trying to point a member here towards some practical help instead of a principle hill to die on. I suppose you would look down on people who take the student loan interest deduction on their income taxes? You're being able to service a $400k student loan may mean you're pushed out of being able to take the deduction with your income, but would you if you could? Did you?

We're not talking here about welfare fraud, we're talking about lawfully using legitimate programs much like lawfully using legitimate deductions on our income taxes.

So I know it's as easy as I think and it's as stringent as you think which is what it should be.

you're getting a little granular, Rey. I'm speaking more at a Macro level. Where people in my age bracket (I'm 30) and below, so I'll go 34 and under. Are generally more educated then any other group in the history of mankind, we're also taking the longest to build careers, families, and build equity. There are a myriad of reasons for that, such as seniors staying in the workforce. However I'm merely noting, with the lower paying jobs I see many of my peers in they could afford the trappings of life even half heartedly if not for this monolithic debt. The effects of the lowered birthrate, and reduced net worth will be felt as a contraction overall affecting everyone. Now the "great boomer die off" will hopefully help stem some of the issues associated with this. However there will be other challenges associated with that as a tool for recovery.

quote:

Originally posted by Wishbone:
The cost of college has far out paced median wages. Bernie Sanders plan for free college was interesting.

Anything that is heavily subsidized, like with scholarships and low-rate student loans, there is no incentive to hold down costs.

Tenured Professors have no incentive to remain truthful, hardworking, or relevant. THe whol;e thing is supported by tax dollars, and there is no incentive to hold down costs.

Classic viscious cycle that will end only when there is some form of catastrophe. That catatstrophe is looking like a vapid "Liberal Elite" who feel they know what is best for everyone and they therefore have a right to rule.

When you have run away infation and loans for any degree regardless of earning potential it's a recipe for staggering debt.

The normally out of control college inflation is one of the reasons I was so proud of my alma mater, Purdue, when they announced the 7th year in a row of zero tuition increases. When I was a student, Purdue tuition was increasing annually at 3x the rate of inflation.

Speaking of earning potential, my former boss is a chemical engineer and she was heavily involved in recruiting women into engineering. She spoke at the local high school in Anchorage, and shared a slide showing the average first year graduate salary of various degrees. The shocking thing is that afterward the guidance counselor pulled her aside and asked for a copy as she had never seen that before. It's mind boggling to think that a good portion of a guidance counselors job is to steer good students into colleges and degrees had zero clue that there were annual publications showing first year graduate salaries, career lifetime earning potential, etc.

There are great, cost effective options still. Western Governors University is a public, non-profit, fully accredited school, that costs just over $3k for a 6 month semester, where you can take as many classes as you can finish. It's self paced, and online. Some people can finish a bachelors degree in 6 months there, if they are motivated and knowledgable. They have degrees in IT, business, medical, and teaching. I finished my bachelors and most of my masters in two and a half years while not being totally focused on it.

One of many reasons college costs have skyrocketed:

University Of Michigan Now Has Almost 100 Full-Time Staff Dedicated To "Diversity"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news...-dedicated-diversity

There are various reasons for surging education costs, but the primary one is the expansion of university administration in recent decades.



“According to the Department of Education data, administrative positions at colleges and universities grew by 60 percent between 1993 and 2009, which Bloomberg reported was 10 times the rate of growth of tenured faculty positions.

Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase.”

Universities are large and require administrators to function, of course. The problem is there seems to be no end to the expansion. This point was recently illustrated by Mark Perry, an economics professor at the University of Michigan-Flint.

Perry, who also is a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, used the University of Michigan as an example to highlight the rise of “diversicrats” (diversity bureaucrats) on today’s campuses. The numbers are astonishing.

1. The University of Michigan currently employs a diversity staff of nearly 100 (93) full-time diversity administrators, officers, directors, vice-provosts, deans, consultants, specialists, investigators, managers, executive assistants, administrative assistants, analysts, and coordinators.

2. More than one-quarter (26) of these “diversicrats” earn annual salaries of more than $100,000, and the total payroll for this small army is $8.4 million. When you add to cash salaries an estimated 32.45% for UM’s very generous fringe benefit package for the average employee in this group (retirement, health care, dental insurance, life insurance, long-term disability, paid leave, paid vacation, social security, unemployment insurance, Medicare, etc.) the total employee compensation for this group tops $11 million per year. And of course that doesn’t count the cost of office space, telephones, computers and printers, printing, postage, programs, training, or travel expenses.

If you fell out of your chair upon realizing that the University of Michigan has a full-time diversity staff of nearly one hundred employees, one of whom earns more than the president of the United States, you can be forgiven. I nearly did too.

We’ve previously noted that the diversity movement is taking on certain aspects of religious faith. It appears, however, that we missed a similarity: Like the priests of ancient Egypt who amassed huge fortunes for themselves and the medieval popes who sold forgiveness and indulgences, the diversity faithful have found profit in their beliefs.

In many ways the modern American university resembles the medieval cathedral - something that began as beautiful but became a monstrosity when its true purpose was lost.

The wife and I had a total of $127000.00 in school loans. We have a combined 2 undergrad and 6 grad degrees. It took us over 20 years to pay off. We have less than $3,000.00 left to pay off. It was an nightmare paying it off. I worked 3 jobs and she 2. We had to postpone buying a house and we can only afford one healthy child. God bless these young kids in this troubled times. May they choose wisely in their choice of classes and degrees.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Originally posted by Wishbone:
The cost of college has far out paced median wages. Bernie Sanders plan for free college was interesting.

WHY has the cost of college has far out paced median wages?
Hint: So has the cost of healthcare...
Why?? Because both have been subsidized by government.
Without the gov. subsidies, people would get the education they can afford.
Do you favor Bernie Sanders' plan for "free college"?

Thank you! Massive infusion of government money into colleges and universities has caused the cost to skyrocket. What's the solution of the brilliant left? Throw even more government money into it. Then it can be "free".

This bubble needs to pop. Let the market decide where the value is in education.

bottom line they chose poorly

silly majors -- photography??

high price schools in mostly urban areas -- Chicago?

apparently there were no adults in the room to guide them

basically - unless you are really rich (self-pay) or really poor (endowment pays) there is only ONE answer nowadays: STATE school with a decent ROI major: nursing, sciences, accounting, etc... make it even more affordable by banging out the pre-reqs at a community college beforehand ... but that's not hip enough for many of the younger generation apparently

-------------------------------------------------

The rise of online universities.... Cheaper in every single way. Unless you are going to school for something requiring labs, most of these degrees can be gotten online. No room and board, no car needed, just a laptop and a webcam.

In decades to come these online schools will crash the current system.

quote:

The weight of the roughly $80,000 in debt that Judith Ruiz would leave school with didn’t hit her when she was applying for the student loans that would finance her education at Columbia College Chicago.

I stopped reading right there after that second paragraph.

When I sign for a loan, I know how much the loan is, how much it's going to cost me and how long it will take me to pay it off. I take such contracts and agreements seriously. When you sign those documents, I seem to remember it is provided in bold print to clearly let the borrower know what's up.

Some facts: An undergraduate student who is viewed as a dependent by their parents by .gov can *only* take out a *maximum* of $27,000 in federal loans for a 4-year degree. The entire rest of the cost of the 4-year degree *must* be paid for in cash or by loans taken out by the student's parents. These additional parent loans can be co-signed by the student, but they must be in the parents' name. There's no way around it. So I *really* don't understand how so many people around the country say that students end up with $100,000+ student loans for a 4-year degree, when all they can take out is $27,000. It's all on the parents, not the students. Can someone please explain that to me?

Sources:

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/t...sidized-unsubsidized

https://studentaid.psu.edu/typ...l-direct/loan-limits

Edit: My math was off.

Chris

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chris17404,

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
Some facts: An undergraduate student who is viewed as a dependent by their parents by .gov can *only* take out a *maximum* of $13,500 in federal loans for a 4-year degree. The entire rest of the cost of the 4-year degree *must* be paid for in cash or by loans taken out by the student's parents. These additional parent loans can be co-signed by the student, but they must be in the parents' name. There's no way around it. So I *really* don't understand how so many people around the country say that students end up with $100,000+ student loans for a 4-year degree, when all they can take out is $13,500. It's all on the parents, not the students. Can someone please explain that to me?

Sources:

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/t...sidized-unsubsidized

https://studentaid.psu.edu/typ...l-direct/loan-limits


Chris

Chris, that’s the cap for Federal Subsidized & Unsubsidized Loans (I believe they are also referred to as “Stafford Loans”.

That’s only a minor chunk of the loans you can take out, normally students who need more will max out the Stafford loan limit as the interest rates are lower and then supplement with a Sallie Mae/PLUS/Other private loan source.

This is an incredibly arcane system for a 17 year old to know anything about.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
We are trying to save well over $350 k per child for their college!!!!!!!

I can barely afford this and will still have heartache when the time comes. I can't imagine I will have all the money saved I will need.

I'm well off but also of the mindset that little Johnny and Susie need to (1) do well in school and (2) get academic scholarships to go to pricy schools.

Otherwise they can go to community college. Or do a trade school. Or join the military. Or whatever they want to do - wait tables at a coffeeshop or whatever floats their boat.

No way I'd spend $350K per kid, for college. That's fucking ludicrous in my opinion. And I don't feel obligated to get them completely edumacated. 4 year BS I'll do and then I'll help with follow on education as available.

Mommy and Daddy paying for everything is how entitled kids fail to grasp the 'real world' and escape to college for a free paid 4-8 year vacation and pop out with a Masters in post medieval era art appreciate studies and such (in general, not pointing it at you).

My first child earned a full tuition scholarship to the university he wanted, where he'll be doing pre-med studies. He knows he'll have to take out loans for medical school but did the math that the reward of a potentially high paying Dr job is worth the stretch. And he's working all summer to put $$$$ in the bank for med school / living expenses / etc / etc.

It's his life from here on out and he seems to have a plan figured out.

Just my 2-cents.