quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
I'm about 900 miles into my first 2/3 of a tank of gas in my Volvo XC90 Recharge. It's a plug in hybrid, meaning I've got both an ICE engine, as well as electric motors and batteries powerful enough to move the car alone. I'm averaging something like 75mpg (and rising as I put more miles on the electric motors) in an SUV with 400hp and 470ft lbs of torque on tap. When you drive it reasonably, the torque is instant and power delivery is smooth. It's a very good implementation of a family car power train, regardless of it's "eco friendly" status symbol.
Vehicle electrification is the future.

So, to the extent that people will bitch about range, lack of charging infrastructure, or fragility of the grid, a plug in hybrid answers a lot of those complaints.

Serious question, what kind of driving are you doing and when and where are you charging? I've been looking at PEHVs a bit but don't quite understand how they work. I've read that most of them (the ones large enough for my family) have a very short all electric range, say 20 miles, which means they must have small batteries. The 2nd gen Volt had a 53 mile all electric range which would cover most of what I drive in a normal day. Do they run all electric until the battery is depleted then switch or do they kick the electric motor in while accelerating and recover electricty while decelerating?

I'm trying to gauge how that would work for me. On a typical day, I drive 22 miles in the morning, 20 miles in the mid-afternoon, and 10 miles in the late afternoon. The only place I can charge is at home. On days that I sub, it would be 32 miles without being able to charge, then an hour later another 10 miles.

I'm also trying to figure out if this could completely replace a vehicle, rather than be a third vehicle that worked 75% of the time.

Not sure what the Volvo is like. TMK, somewhat smaller yachts now run generators and electric drive trains, same as trains and ships, but I think they are still the smallest vehicles doing so.

That’s definitely the near future commuter/high performance tech. It is more energy efficient, if the costs get inline/the manufactures get the emissions evaluated on a per mile driven basis.

And there’s just no comparison in acceleration. I think that’s why folks are working on capacitor banks instead of batteries. For performance/probably cost, it makes the most sense.

TMK, the cheapest way to transport energy to homes, is a natural gas pipeline. I know NG fuel cells exist, but they’re expensive and small.

Trapper, for that kind of drive, you may want to look at a used Nissan Leaf - they drop to like an 80 mile range pretty quick, and go for a 2-4k. At least, they did. I know folks who use them in cities/on farms instead of golf carts

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
I'm about 900 miles into my first 2/3 of a tank of gas in my Volvo XC90 Recharge. It's a plug in hybrid, meaning I've got both an ICE engine, as well as electric motors and batteries powerful enough to move the car alone. I'm averaging something like 75mpg (and rising as I put more miles on the electric motors) in an SUV with 400hp and 470ft lbs of torque on tap. When you drive it reasonably, the torque is instant and power delivery is smooth. It's a very good implementation of a family car power train, regardless of it's "eco friendly" status symbol.
Vehicle electrification is the future.

So, to the extent that people will bitch about range, lack of charging infrastructure, or fragility of the grid, a plug in hybrid answers a lot of those complaints.

Serious question, what kind of driving are you doing and when and where are you charging? I've been looking at PEHVs a bit but don't quite understand how they work. I've read that most of them (the ones large enough for my family) have a very short all electric range, say 20 miles, which means they must have small batteries. The 2nd gen Volt had a 53 mile all electric range which would cover most of what I drive in a normal day. Do they run all electric until the battery is depleted then switch or do they kick the electric motor in while accelerating and recover electricty while decelerating?

I'm trying to gauge how that would work for me. On a typical day, I drive 22 miles in the morning, 20 miles in the mid-afternoon, and 10 miles in the late afternoon. The only place I can charge is at home. On days that I sub, it would be 32 miles without being able to charge, then an hour later another 10 miles.

I'm also trying to figure out if this could completely replace a vehicle, rather than be a third vehicle that worked 75% of the time.

All of the above.

The Volvo (and I'm sure others) have a number of user selectable drive modes.

1. "Pure Electric" where the car uses only the rear wheel electric motors unless you mash the pedal in an emergency. Mashing the pedal instantly turns on the ICE for all available power. When you run out of battery power, your default back to Hybrid mode below.

2. Hybrid. If you have battery power, it will rely on electric motors first, but will kick in the ICE engine for anything above moderate acceleration. If your battery level is low, it will rely on the ICE engine first and kick in electric motor to assist with acceleration (for efficiency). The car will always maintain a reserve battery level using regenerative braking and even direct ICE regeneration power for electric assist (again, for efficiency). The car may, at it's discretion, shut off the ICE engine at any time and push you around using electric motors when your speed and torque needs can be met by available battery charge.

3. Performance. ICE engine stays on, EV motor kicks in for vroom vroom.

4. Constant AWD. Both ICE and EV motor at the same time, all the time, to provide power up all 4 wheels.

5. Hold Battery. Asks the car to save the battery for later use. Will use small amounts of EV motor for acceleration when needed or when excess power had been captured by regenerative braking. Good if you've got a long highway drive and want to save you battery for stop and go traffic or city driving at the end.

6. Recharge Battery. Asks the car to actively recharge the battery using the ICE engine. Good if you have stop and go traffic on either ends of a long highway drive.

The car has regenerative braking in all modes, and will turn on the ICE engine at any time to meet power demand.

My wife's typical usage is a bunch of short drives throughout the day to show houses or meet clients (she's a real estate agent). We only charge at home. She starts the day with 20 miles of electric range, plus a few more when she plugs the car back in wherever she's been at home, and the car just switches to ICE wherever she runs out of electric range. Again, because the car always reserves a bit of battery power for hybrid function, she always has 400hp on tap (for short bursts), even if the electric range has dropped to zero.

For your usage, with about 55 miles of driving in a typical day, you'll probably use about a gallon a day for your commute. With the Volvo, after your electric range is depleted, you get mid-30's mpg.

Other cars are more economical with greater electric only range. The Volvo is a fairly luxurious vehicle that is built like a vault, so it's curb weight isn't doing it any favors. A Toyota RAV4 Prime gets 42 miles of electric range, and has 300hp total system output. You'd be using like a third of a gallon of gas per day for your commute.

I think Lefty Sig makes a very good point about the lithium mine insanity we'll see in the short future.

Like bigdeal, I love technology. It's fascinating. I'm relatively slow to adopt it, however. I could be down with a good hybrid (I thought the Infiniti Q50 Sport hybrid I drove was great), but I'd be mighty hesitant to go full-electric.

Meanwhile, my garage holds an older SUV (17 mpg), a Honda motorcycle (roughly 35 mpg) and a diesel VW (38 mpg).

I enjoy rocking a couple of these stickers:


The technology is both great and fascinating. I'm not convinced the grid can support a full-scale changeover, and the pessimist in me says that the more complex our vehicles get (technologically or otherwise) the more likely we'll end up being victim to it in some way (a firmware update or a hacker will brick it, an EMP will take it out, hitting a large pothole too hard will break some circuit boards, etc).

For many of us, EVs make sense. If all I needed to do was commute to work and get my groceries, I could probably be in for one. But there are weeklong cross-state trips, towing, and unpredictable events that make EV impractical for me.

Simplest issue: charging capability just isn't very available 'round here. Gas (or diesel) are available everywhere I go, and if I were in between stations and ran out they're easily portable. Carrying a can of electricity to a stranded EV is a whole 'nother thing.

Comment moved from Rivan plant thread.

They are perfectly viable, you just need to give them time and let capitalism do it's magic. If they are truly our saving grace and will end global warming then the markets will naturally make them mainstream.

My only issues with them is forcing working class Americans pay for upper or upper middle class people's cars so they can brag to their friends.

Billions upon billions, if not trillions has been spent to speed their adoption up by 5, 7, 10 years from what would happen naturally via capitalism. This is doubly bad for two reasons. First that money could go to feeding the homeless, making Medicare/SS solvent, or even building a border wall today. Instead it's lining the pockets of big tech and subsidiaries for the rich or semi rich. Second if allowed to naturally evolve we'd end up with a better and more financially viable product and the infrastructure to charge them growing in lockstep with increased usage.

Imagine if they did the same for television. HDTV is great, but what if we told people it's the wave of the future and we need everyone to have a flat screen in the next 18 months, so we are going to tax you to make it happen. Seems nuts right? Any sane person would say instead let's wait til the TVs wear out or there's enough of a used HDTV market that even if you can't afford a new TV (EV) you can at least get a year or two old model at a reasonable price.

Every other product is funded by early adopters and it evolves and gets less expensive over time. What's the rush with this one product?

For anyone dead set that they will never own an EV or they will only own an EV and *YOU* have to pay for it, I got an idea, chill bro. Time will allow for the most efficient use of capital combined with trying to limit harm to the environment. Capitalism is a wonderful thing, let it do it's magic.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Gentlemen, am I being led to believe that government doesn't already have it's dick in everything?

Certainly we can acknowledge that oil companies, and auto manufacturers have received subsidies and tax breaks long before the first Tesla rolled out of a factory?

The government manipulates everything from the price of gas, to the price of corn for ethanol, to road taxes, luxury vehicle taxes, emissions regulations, import taxes for all the parts, all the way down to how worker labor is taxes on their income. A rebate when I buy an EV shouldn't turn you off from the tech anymore than government farm subsidies should turn you off of dairy.

I don’t like the subsidies at all but you’re right because the oil industry still gets something like $800 million in subsidies every year. If people were honest most of the hate for EV comes from government involvement which is a little strange when you start looking at other industries that have been getting massive subsidies while making billions every year.

I have a few questions about EVs. What happens to them when they get old? Would anyone here buy a used one, say with 100,000 miles on the odometer? Are older used EVs still useful, or do they just get recycled? What happens to all those old batteries?

They are nice when they’re new and shiny. But what about after the shine wears off?

quote:

Originally posted by 2Adefender:
I have a few questions about EVs. What happens to them when they get old? Would anyone here buy a used one, say with 100,000 miles on the odometer? Are older used EVs still useful, or do they just get recycled? What happens to all those old batteries?

They are nice when they’re new and shiny. But what about after the shine wears off?

There are a number of them over 300k and 400k out there.

400k+ Tesla

quote:

30 years from now, the leftist will be wringing hands over the "tragedy of the lithium mines".

There will be news reports and documentaries about 3rd world lithium mines with child labor, slavery, massive environmental damage, contaminated groundwater, and all the other sins committed by the U.S. in our quest for "clean power" that fueled our lust for lithium. And environmentalists will protest the battery manufacturers and their "blood lithium" and demand we move to an alternative energy source that doesn't rape the earth and enslave poor people...

You're way behind. Nobody is wringing their hands about it it's being ignored except by the third world people who are directly effected by it. There was a class action lawsuit filed in D.C. in 2019 against Apple and big tech companies Tesla included. The lawsuit was started by a mother who lost her son and cousin in the Cobalt mines in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and then joined by other parents. It's a sad and disgusting story of child human rights abuses and you can read about it here and many other places. If you have a phone, laptop or battery operated tools it all goes back to the mineral mines and many of these minerals just happen to be concentrated in these third world countries like the DRC. It's like sausages if you don't see how they are made it's all good.

The tech is cool. The government subsidies were/are annoying not because of government intervention but a pushback on the government trying to force me the consumer to go a certain direction. California for example, by what year are new ICE personal vehicles being outlawed? What if it doesn’t make sense for you? What if infrastructure isn’t capable? No matter, the decision is being made for you.

Big government is pushing this and I don’t like being pushed.

The tech is cool. Big acceleration numbers are cool. Having two cars to perform the needs of my life instead of one isn't cool.

I hate the argument of “it’s a great commuter” car. I don’t know about you guys but I consider a car a necessary investment (chuckle) in my life. I don’t buy niche cars. I want one car to perform basically all of my needs. Some not so well as others obviously but doubling initial cost, insurance, tires, etc sounds moronic to me.

Aeteocles kind of hit my sweet spot. Plug in hybrids make 100% more sense than almost anything else yet the push is for full electric. A plug in hybrid allows the best of both worlds and without government meddling I suspect would be the overwhelming choice of the consumer. I can plug in for the daily short trips but still use the car to take the family to Disney World without the idiotic discussion of taking multiple stops to refuel. For fucks sake I used to start drives late night/early morning just so the kids would sleep. I don’t need or want to stop every 3 hours to refuel for 20-30 minutes when the trip planner tells me.

I think what you perceive as bashing is really people disliking being pissed on and told it’s rain. EV isn’t a magic panacea but that is what is being sold to the masses to justify their replacement of ICE, whether you want it or not.

As for renewables I do cringe at Aeteocles’ assertion that it is a large amount. Discounting nuclear because that’s a hard slog to get approved here in the states solar and wind aren’t even 10%. Sure hydro adds another 7-10% but short some revolutionary idea you aren’t building any new hydro on any significant scale in the snail darter save the ecosystem country we live in. Name a large scale hydro development in works in the US. What you see is what you got. And even that has issues. Hoover Dam? Colorado River?

Don’t force it down my throat. Don’t sell it on wildly outrageous claims while ignoring the elephant in the room of its problems. To read any publication, ICE is the devil and EV will save the world. Everyone here knows that is bullshit but the average American thinks it’s true. They also think everything in their blue recycling bin is being recycled. Fuck.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Bigdeal Johnson is right!

Pretty damn sneaky, aren’t you.

I like the idea of having an ev. Something simple and affordable, that will last 15 years. It’s not only mileage that breaks down a vehicle, you know. The part that concerns me is the difference between a gasoline fire and a lithium battery fire. It’s pretty well known that an ev fire is quite violent. A Tesla catching on fire after a crash is not uncommon, neither is a Chevy Bolt that spontaneously combusts.

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Gentlemen, am I being led to believe that government doesn't already have it's dick in everything?

Certainly we can acknowledge that oil companies, and auto manufacturers have received subsidies and tax breaks long before the first Tesla rolled out of a factory?

The government manipulates everything from the price of gas, to the price of corn for ethanol, to road taxes, luxury vehicle taxes, emissions regulations, import taxes for all the parts, all the way down to how worker labor is taxes on their income. A rebate when I buy an EV shouldn't turn you off from the tech anymore than government farm subsidies should turn you off of dairy.

I don’t like the subsidies at all but you’re right because the oil industry still gets something like $800 million in subsidies every year. If people were honest most of the hate for EV comes from government involvement which is a little strange when you start looking at other industries that have been getting massive subsidies while making billions every year.

the largest no ethanol refinery on the gulf coast was down the road from me, a few years ago it changed hands. At that point a blender got installed... they now get a 25cent per gal tax credit to blend in the ethanol

I'm heavily invested in big oil, and nearly doubled my money in just over a year.

I'd like that to continue.

You shouldn't EV Fagetti, it's ecologically unsound.

Honestly given pure electric vehicles today my only hesitation is recharge time and ease. A 250-400 mile range is far more then adequate, performance is there, they are able to do things and bring things to the vehicle equation your average ICE vehicle can’t but at the end of the day they take comparatively FOREVER to charge and you have to find a place to do it if you are away from home base. I want to be able to pull into any gas station and charge my EV in 10-15 min, and that is being generous as that is still longer then it takes to fuel up. I think we will get there and I also think this is why plug in hybrids make more sense and I don’t understand why we haven’t chased those more. Conversely an insane range works for me as well. Say 800-1000 miles. That gives enough range for a full day of travel to warrant a longer charge time / rest period.

Now there are other questions like can the grid ramp up to handle, inevitable rising costs of electricity, technology over reach long term viability, recycling etc. but the above is my one consumer level hang up.

I guess most of my real problem with EV cars is EV car owners.
Tesla snobs are the worst. They somehow work the fact that they have a Tesla in to any conversation and act very superior to anyone that doesn't have one or has a different brand of EV car. They act very cultish.

I think EV cars are a great idea, but not practical for me as I need to haul stuff frequently and cargo space is what an EV doesn't really offer right now. I could not sit in a car that low to the ground either, it would be a bitch for me to get in an out of those constantly. Plus the fact that my SUVs sit a lot higher and I have a much better view of the road from that vantage point.

Last thing is something I never considered before last week, crash safety. My friend at one of the rep agencies I deal with got hit by a girl driving a Tesla a few weeks back. The Tesla caught fire and it took several hours for the FD to put the fire out due to the batteries needing to cool down.

Aren't they scrap in 5-8 years?

OK this got a chuckle from me.