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No double standards
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quote:
Originally posted by SIG228:
quote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

Exactly.

When those of us private sector workers have lost our pensions and see our wages getting squashed down, it is getting more and more unpleasant to watch our high school and college friends living nicely on their government pensions at age 55. I understand and philosophically agree with the idea the pension was an obligation the government employer entered into, and the employee should receive it.

But when I'm 65 yrs old, working, and living frugally while my friends have been retired for a decade already, I'm not going to be receptive to tax increases to pay their pensions!


Nothing but sour grapes. Maybe you should've made different choices in life. My biggest regret is I didn't follow my buddies and join the National Guard right of high school. Some of them will end up with three solid pensions by the time they retire.


I might suggest that gov't exists to serve the needs of the people, not the other way around. But public sector compensation, on the whole, has become a much better package than what is available for most private sector jobs. Applying Orwell, it very much fits "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal".

What would you recommend for California to fill it's $1 Trillion public pension hole? The more you raise taxes on the private sector, the more industry and jobs you will drive away. In time the public sector will have killed their host, then they will have to feed on each other.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Report This Post
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I live in Roseville, CA where over 20% of the city budget goes to paying pensions for former city employees. In a 2011 report, over 33 retires make over $100K in retirement, most are LEO, firefighters, and management. Many of these employees worked for 25-30 years for the city, but will collect nearly as many years in retirement. My LEO family member retired just shy of his 50th birthday after 24 years of service and will collect nearly $150K in retirement per year.

How is that sustainable?

Public pensions will be radically reduced, regardless of what politicians and unions negotiated. Tax payers will get severely hosed. And the pension funds will still take a hit.

PS - Scoutmaster, I'll come visit when you relocate to the Wasatch front. I've got three (soon to be four) brothers in Utah county and my mom as well.


P229
 
Posts: 3981 | Location: Sacramento, CA | Registered: November 21, 2008Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Hardly any of these workers in the public sector get a pension and quite honestly, the city's pay scale is pretty darn good compared to private sector?


Well from my perspective on history at 56 yrs old, it has to do with the arc of the private economy vs the arc of public sector unions and liberal politicians in power.

Back in the early 20th century there weren't many pensions. But good employers started offering them. More and more employers started offering pensions as a way to attract hard working loyal employees.

In the 1980's that was all changing. It became too expensive to keep pension plans going. Companies saw it was cheaper to ditch the pension and not worry about loyal employees. They went much more to the short term employee model which saved on payroll and benefits.

Ergo in the private sector there are very few pensions any more.

But over the same time period the public unions were powerful and negotiated sweet contracts. Politicians were happy to hand out all kinds of future unfunded benefits because it got them votes. Public sector jobs paid more and more, their benefits got better, and their pensions got even sweeter.

When I came out of engineering college in 1982 I had an excellent starting salary of $26,500 at IBM. If I'd gone into government service as an engineer I would have made about 75% of that. If I'd become a teacher I would have made even less. But, I would have had much more job security in a public sector job.

Historically then that was the tradeoff. One could go the private sector road and likely make more money but have less job security. One could choose public sector and have job security (and likely easier less competitive schedule).

Both paths, though, would likely lead to a pension of some sort.

Today it has been turned upside down, where pubic sector jobs pay better than many similar skill level private sector jobs, plus they have pensions.


That's not entirely true, the employers went to a model of retirement compensation that was long term sustainable. Matching 401k benefits, they match what the employee puts in, the employees retirement is solely funded by how the economy and their 401k does.

I care, because I'm a taxpayer with 3 properties (2 are rentals) and I pay $10k a year in property taxes, 1/3 of that goes to the Broward county school board (which has horrible ratings and public schools are horrible in education to what they were 20 years ago), the other 1/3 goes to firefighters and police and the rest goes to actually running the city. But my on one property my taxes have doubled in less than 5 years......

The cities need to go to a matching 401k just like businesses on new and all future hires (except maybe police/firefighters/emt's) and keep everyone else grandfathered in and phase out something that is no way sustainable.
 
Posts: 21428 | Registered: June 12, 2005Report This Post
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Fun factoid
Citizens hire a government employee, citizens then pay said government employees a living wage, their health care benefits, retirement benefits,
and....
then said government employees also pay

Taxes

The tax payers are funding a high enough wage so that the government employee can then pay taxes on our taxes.

Private companies/employers must be competitive to stay viable, a government entities not so much.
 
Posts: 441 | Registered: June 12, 2005Report This Post
No double standards
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quote:
Originally posted by springnr:....Private companies/employers must be competitive to stay viable, a government entities not so much.

That is a key point. The private sector must be competitive, locally, maybe even nationally and internationally. There is no real equivalent force in government labor markets to keep them efficient and on target in meeting their "customer" needs.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Report This Post
No double standards
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:....That's not entirely true, the employers went to a model of retirement compensation that was long term sustainable. Matching 401k benefits, they match what the employee puts in, the employees retirement is solely funded by how the economy and their 401k does....


That is called a "defined contribution" pension. The employee gets whatever is in the fund, contributions from both parties plus earnings, upon retirement. Almost all private sector pensions these days are defined contribution, whereas most gov't pensions are defined benefit. The latter is much riskier, hence the current topic, defined benefit pensions will bankrupt many governments.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
That is called a "defined contribution" pension. The employee gets whatever is in the fund, contributions from both parties plus earnings, upon retirement. Almost all private sector pensions these days are defined contribution, whereas most gov't pensions are defined benefit. The latter is much riskier, hence the current topic, defined benefit pensions will bankrupt many governments.


FWIW the DOD is examining a hybrid retirement system for soldiers that includes elements of a defined contribution plan as they have also seen how expensive the current system can be.
 
Posts: 4830 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Report This Post
There is a world elsewhere
Picture of Echtermetzger
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quote:
The difference with government employees are that many, maybe most, are covered by civil service protects that, once there in make it difficult to get rid of them. There is a process, but it's such a PITA that, unless the problem is criminal, or such a massive PR problems, the managers won't bother trying to get rid of someone, who, in a private sector job, would just get fairly easily canned.


There are some government employees who may be protected by a collective bargaining agreement, others who have civil-service rules or just HR policies, etc., but if those don't exist, they are at-will employees.

And if the managers don't move forward with discipline or termination, then it isn't the "public employees" who are at fault, that is the management culture.


A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed.
 
Posts: 6685 | Location: The hard land of the Winter | Registered: April 14, 2003Report This Post
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