I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

quote:

Originally posted by hbabler:....That data is over three years old, there has been a tremendous amount of data that has surfaced over the last three years in regards to cancer specifically. The data is young but for example firefighters are 100 times more likely to have testicular cancer, and 50 times more likely to have non Hodgkin's lymphoma and there many other types of cancer that occur at a much higher rate too. If occupational cancer were included in the LODD numbers as it should be the number would at least quadruple maybe more.

Do you have any references on that data?

Yes of course,
Some of it is still new so some of figures are not exact.

http://healthnews.uc.edu/news/?/3750/

https://firefightercancersuppo...the-Fire-Service.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire...s/ffCancerStudy.html

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:

quote:

Originally posted by Tailhook 84:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:

I also found out recently that "volunteer" firefighters also receive a pension in many municipalities (mine included).

And how much do they max out at per month? How many get vested and of the vested group, how many actually collect?

My dad did over 40 years as an active volunteer firefighter in Texas. Every month when he got his $20 check he would take my mom out for burgers. If they had enough left over they would get ice cream too.

C'mon, someone earlier said volunteer fireman get a pension of $2,400.00 per month.

I believe when I was in, they told us it was $200 or something after 30 years. And you have to be active and attend training every year, 24 hours or something. (Just looked it up, $170/month after 20 years AND age 55, with monthly contributions of $10/month for those 20 years from the firefighter).

As far as my police pension...absolutely no way I'd stay in if they took it away. For the vast majority I know, once past 10 years, the pension is the main reason for staying. It's the only thing that makes the pay, the shit hours, the scum we deal with, and the yo-yo schedule worth it. I could double my salary if I changed careers, or more. But no pension.

Anyone know the retirement rate for officers? I'd guess 50% or less. I honestly don't know. That seems to be the rate around here. It's hard to stay a cop for 30 years (my state). Add in the current generation's tendency to career hop...my guess is that we'll less than half the people who are ever sworn in as law enforcement at the state/local level make it to retirement, but a Google search isn't giving me an answer.

Thankfully my state's pension system is #1 or #2 best funded in the nation. With any luck, I can hold out another 18 years.

Furthermore, from my state's treasurer's page:

quote:

Between 1993 and 2014, 12.97% of North Carolina’s pension fund receipts came from employer contributions , 14.94% from employee
contributions, and 72.09% from investment earnings.* Earnings on investments and
employee contributions—not taxpayer based contributions—have historically made up
the bulk of pension fund receipts.

I have no moral qualms with accepting my pension when it comes, which I pay for both directly and as a tax payer, and I have high confidence that it will, barring a cataclysm.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:....It's San Francisco, WTF else would you expect?

You make a good point.

quote:

Originally posted by hbabler:....Yes of course,
Some of it is still new so some of figures are not exact.

http://healthnews.uc.edu/news/?/3750/

https://firefightercancersuppo...the-Fire-Service.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire...s/ffCancerStudy.html

Useful info. I might point out that the Univ of Cincinnati report seems to be Nov 2006. The firefightercancer is Aug 2013. The cdc is fairly recent, last July.

I would have a concern with the CDC, sometimes their credibility is not much better than the man-made global warming research. Such studies are widely known for confirmation bias -- filter out data that doesn't fit what you want to prove. (I was in the gov't funded research business for a few years out of grad school, I know how that industry works).

I am not saying the CDC study is in error, but I would like to see the raw data. As my stat prof would often say, many people use statistics the way a drunk uses a light post, to prop themselves up rather than for the light they might shed.

But in the end, does it matter? The reality is that defined benefit pensions, almost exclusively government and unions, will bankrupt many gov'ts. (It was a defined benefit pension that bankrupted the old General Motors, the union pension was bailed out by US taxpayers).

As I noted earlier, the public pensions in CA, if they get only a 4% return on their portfolio (the last two years were around 1% return), then they are $1 Trillion in the hole. So if the cancer rate for firefighters is higher than other public sector workers, how does that change the $1T deficit?

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:....I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

You don't live in California.

My wife had a pension which she never contributed to. When she turned 64 the company funding it lowered the rate from 7 % to 4 1/2% annually. We looked at the economy and considered the risk and moved the funds into an annuity which guarantees us 7% annually. This gave us full control of the funds. We felt the risk of the pension was in potential jeopardy and the lowering rate of return prompted us to make the move. Been a good move overall and our other investments have paid off at an even higher rate than the annuity.

Scoutmaster I agree with you, for me the research is fascinating. Does it mean we can have an unsustainable plan, no.

My pension is in deep trouble, both pensioners, new hires, tax payers and current employees are going to take it on the chin. We have made numerous reductions in benefits to shore it up and will have another large reduction in benefits soon. Something has to be done and I feel it must protect the most vulnerable which in my system are the older retirees and the widows of fallen officers. I have plenty of time to prepare for retirement and we sacrifice to make sure that we will have something to retire on if the pension defaults.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

That happens here too. Their pension is based off of 70% of what they made in their last year, so the fire and police give the guy thats retiring a million hours of OT. And say their salary was $100k, they're getting more than that from their pension, then some are even going back to work for a different municipality and make another salary......ridiculous.

Another salary, lol. If I can stomach this liberal cesspool for another few years I'll leave with two pensions under my belt. That really oughta twist up your panties.

It's unsustainable and cheating the system as well as the taxpayers who are paying for it. Should they get 70% of their normal salary when they retire, YES. Should they get 70% of 200% of their normal salary, NO. If they normally would make $100k, then they should normally get 70% or 70k, they shouldn't retire with $140k because they worked a bazillion hours of overtime their last year only and happened to make $200k that 1 year. Then retire from that job, then 3 months later go right back to their same old job at the same city making the same pay, absolutely not. Retiring from a job means you retire from it. No different than a crooked politician.

And, whose getting hit hard, the retirees on fixed income whose property taxes keep going up and up and up for the same level of service they've always had on a property they've owned for 30 years that half of them bought with a salary much less than the firefighters/police their property taxes are paying .

It should be done just like the military does it with a fixed amount based on your position, where this position retires with X amount a year and a cost of living adjustment every year, 20 years gets you X percent, 30 years gets you Y percent and so on......

Here, posting for a firefighter/paramedic job in a city 10 minutes from my house, starting pay $57,761. The median income here is $30k
http://job-openings.monster.co...01001&jobPosition=1#

quote:

Originally posted by Echtermetzger:
[...lazy and/or incompetent people will eventually find jobs.....in the private sector again, albeit with different employers.

The public sector is not some island of misfit employees where refugees from the private sector end up.
...

Do you imply that lazy and incompetent people only end up in the private sector, never (or rarely) in the public sector?? That the public sector is an island of professionalism and competence?

quote:

...The "article" is an opinion piece comparing the life expectancy of firefighters to other public employees upon reaching the age of 60....

Yes, but the article references data from the North American Society of Actuaries, which data is used by life insurance/pension programs throughout the continent to set premium rates. Also, the "opinion" is from Alicia H. Munnell who is the director of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College, not a shoddy outfit, and not one inclined to be unduly conservative.

Out of grad school I worked close to 30 years in finance/acct/business mgmt for publicly traded firms, private firms, non-profit firms, a goodly portion of which involved contracting to the government. I continue to do consulting for private firms, some of whom actually pay me (mostly pro-bono). And for the past 20 years I have been an adjunct professor (part time) in college in Silicon Valley.

I have seen a lot of sloth and corruption in both the public and private sectors. I was once asked to testify against a former employer re fed charges of criminal fraud on gov't contracts. My own experience and observation is that, for the most part, the private sector will weed such out, either voluntarily, or with gov't involvement. Also from my own experience and observation, there is minimal effort on the part the public sector to do the same. The claim that lazy/incompetent people end up in the private sector is 100% contrary to my past 40 years of employment.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

Here in South Florida they do. I have several fire fighter friends. They start out at $40k a year and work 3 days a week (granted 24 hour days at the fire house, sometimes not working a lot, sometimes a lot of calls). These friends also have their own businesses making another 50k or more 2-3 days a week out of their 4 days a week off.....one has a diving business cleaning boat bottoms, another a pressure cleaning business, etc. etc......

The whole "cops die at 59" or whatever thing is an urban myth, based on olde, unduplicated, data.

But it's so ingrained that it's still spoken on high as the gospel.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

Here in South Florida they do. I have several fire fighter friends. They start out at $40k a year and work 3 days a week (granted 24 hour days at the fire house, sometimes not working a lot, sometimes a lot of calls). These friends also have their own businesses making another 50k or more 2-3 days a week out of their 4 days a week off.....one has a diving business cleaning boat bottoms, another a pressure cleaning business, etc. etc......

So they earn 100k a year, working 60+ hours a week at 2 jobs?

I have no problem with that.

I worked years of 24 hour shifts as a paramedic, many of them in firehouses. It ain't a walk in the park. I'd say it was much more stressful than working midnight shift in a dangerous city as a cop. I did that, too.

Firefighters in the city I work in now are probably the highest paid in the state, and likely the hardest working. Certainly the best trained, overall. At around 10 years they top out at around $55-60k

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

Here in South Florida they do. I have several fire fighter friends. They start out at $40k a year and work 3 days a week (granted 24 hour days at the fire house, sometimes not working a lot, sometimes a lot of calls). These friends also have their own businesses making another 50k or more 2-3 days a week out of their 4 days a week off.....one has a diving business cleaning boat bottoms, another a pressure cleaning business, etc. etc......

So they earn 100k a year, working 60+ hours a week at 2 jobs?

I have no problem with that.

I worked years of 24 hour shifts as a paramedic, many of them in firehouses. It ain't a walk in the park. I'd say it was much more stressful than working midnight shift in a dangerous city as a cop. I did that, too.

I'm not saying them making a $100k a year is a bad thing, but the poster I quoted is acting like they don't make money and their retirements are nothing. Their retirements are a hell of a lot better than a 20 year military pension.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

Here in South Florida they do. I have several fire fighter friends. They start out at $40k a year and work 3 days a week (granted 24 hour days at the fire house, sometimes not working a lot, sometimes a lot of calls). These friends also have their own businesses making another 50k or more 2-3 days a week out of their 4 days a week off.....one has a diving business cleaning boat bottoms, another a pressure cleaning business, etc. etc......

So they earn 100k a year, working 60+ hours a week at 2 jobs?
I have no problem with that.
I worked years of 24 hour shifts as a paramedic, many of them in firehouses. It ain't a walk in the park. I'd say it was much more stressful than working midnight shift in a dangerous city as a cop. I did that, too.

I'm not saying them making a $100k a year is a bad thing, but the poster I quoted is acting like they don't make money and their retirements are nothing. Their retirements are a hell of a lot better than a 20 year military pension.

Depends on what rank you retired at doesn't it?
Is healthcare included in the military pension? If it's VA, some suck dog balls, (coughPhxcough) - some are actually pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I call the Fire Department when my house is on fire and I appreciate it when they show up. Same goes for cops when I need them. I have met thousands of people in my life and I don't recall too many old cops and firefighters living high on the hog on their fantastic pensions. Sorry I don't have the actuarial data to back that up just life experience for what that is worth.

Here in South Florida they do. I have several fire fighter friends. They start out at $40k a year and work 3 days a week (granted 24 hour days at the fire house, sometimes not working a lot, sometimes a lot of calls). These friends also have their own businesses making another 50k or more 2-3 days a week out of their 4 days a week off.....one has a diving business cleaning boat bottoms, another a pressure cleaning business, etc. etc......

So they earn 100k a year, working 60+ hours a week at 2 jobs?
I have no problem with that.
I worked years of 24 hour shifts as a paramedic, many of them in firehouses. It ain't a walk in the park. I'd say it was much more stressful than working midnight shift in a dangerous city as a cop. I did that, too.

I'm not saying them making a $100k a year is a bad thing, but the poster I quoted is acting like they don't make money and their retirements are nothing. Their retirements are a hell of a lot better than a 20 year military pension.

Depends on what rank you retired at doesn't it?
Is healthcare included in the military pension? If it's VA, some suck dog balls, (coughPhxcough) - some are actually pretty good.

It does, but I'm speaking in general or the average. At the 20 year mark most military personnel retire as an O-5, O-5 at 20 years in pays $8798.10 per month for active. Retirement would be 50% of that (at 20 year mark) so $4400 a month......

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:

I also found out recently that "volunteer" firefighters also receive a pension in many municipalities (mine included).

And how much do they max out at per month? How many get vested and of the vested group, how many actually collect? How much money do you save on your insurance because of the ISO rating? How much money do you pay to fund the department and how much would you pay if it was fully paid municipal department?

The 1 example I know if is $2,400 per month. If he dies, it goes to his wife until she dies.

Interestingly though, the all volunteer fire dept is always looking for new recruits, but I've never heard of anyone advertising this benefit. I would almost expect them to advertise that they are paying a pension after 20 years of volunteer service. They would probably get more people to volunteer.

In New York where I am from my father gets less than that half that a month with 40 years in service and he is still serving. As that number is above our program cap, he will never receive that. It doesn't go very far where he lives, but if he moved down south it could cover rental of an apartment. In NY we call it the Length of Service Awards Program (LOSAP). It's touted as a recruitment and retention tool, but in my experience it has no real value as a recruitment tool in our area. Most of our recruits were high school age kids with no concept of retirement. Most of them go off to college and move away prior to the 5 year vesting mark. We occasionally get a middle aged recruit, but they usually already have retirement plans through work (pension or 401K) and LOSAP is an added perk (potentially) they still need to make it through the vesting period. Additionally, you are required to make points each month/each year in order to earn a years work of credit in the program. So if you are in for 20 years but don't make points for 5 of them, you only get credit for the 15 and have to keep going if you want to max out your payment. You get points for drills and training, but that's not enough to make the required points for a month, you have to go to calls. Enforcement has become so draconian that we have a fingerprint scanner in the fire house so guys can sign in and earn their points. Another key piece is that there is a minimum age to start collecting, I don't know what it is off the top of my head, but it's mid to late fifties to mid sixties depending on the department. With the program being relatively young (a couple decades) we have a small pool of recipients maybe a dozen or less. Many of the recipients like my father is still very active in the Department. Unfortunately a several of our other recipients have died or are dying off.

I am a little rusty on the LOSAP program, because I went in the Army in 2005. Immediately prior to that I was an elected fire commissioner in addition to being a volunteer fire fighter and a volunteer EMT in another agency. I am vested in both the fire and EMS agency for losap, when I get back to the states I'll have to check my benefits statement. Given this conversation I wish I had paid more attention to the LOSAP program, One of the members of the board of Commissioners administered the program. IIRC we couldn't take money out of it and we funded it as part of our budget. The budget was funded by a "fire tax" that included in the home/property owners annual tax bill. I don't know how much it was as I couldn't afford to own property. However, no one ever complained about it, and we lowered our budget when the economy took a hit. You might be able to get more info with a FOIA request.

quote:

Originally posted by Echtermetzger:

quote:

My fire district was the first in the nation to do so. The union has spent a boatload of money to try to elect people to undo that!
BTW ... it's going great.

how goes the recruitment for new fire-fighters?

Fire-fighters enjoy a much lower life-expectancy.

Fire-fighters in the Mehlville Fire Protection District earn a good living. There are at least 75 applicants when a position becomes available.

I doubt that there is any data on the life-expectancy of fire-fighters participating in defined contribution retirement systems vs. defined benefit pension retirement.

quote:

You don't live in California.

Sorry for you. You make sound very cogent remarks though for a California resident.

The difference with government employees are that many, maybe most, are covered by civil service protects that, once there in make it difficult to get rid of them. There is a process, but it's such a PITA that, unless the problem is criminal, or such a massive PR problems, the managers won't bother trying to get rid of someone, who, in a private sector job, would just get fairly easily canned.

quote:

Originally posted by Echtermetzger:

quote:

So the lazy don't really end up in the gov't. The gov't is more efficient/effective in their labor force?

No, governments are employers, and just like any other employer, there are the good, the bad and the average employees.

Just like in the public sector, there are scammers and rip-off artists.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-s...-guilty-white-plains

quote:

Preet Bharara, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, announced today that ROBERT LEES, a former senior executive of Universal Forest Products, Inc. (“UFP”) was convicted a jury of conspiracy, mail fraud, money laundering and making false statements in a loan application following a seven-day trial in White Plains before United States District Judge Kenneth M. Karas.

Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said: “Today, a jury unanimously found that Robert Lees, a senior executive at Universal Forest Products, participated in a kickback scheme that defrauded both HUD and a mortgage lender. This verdict should serve as a warning to other corporate executives tempted by fraud.”

The difference between your example and mine is that I am not using mine in generalizing that all, most or many corporate executives in the private sector are lazy scam artists.

There are good ones, there are bad ones, but most are just average.