Again, I never said it was over.

I said the Venezuelan people today do not have the desire or drive to depose their favorite bus driver and his litany of goons.

I am saying I do not want to see US Military involvement in a country where half of the people prefer a caudillo boot on their neck and don't mind world record levels of crime and bow down to collectivo thought police.

The bill comes due on socialism/communism.

It shouldn't be paid in American blood unless it is fighting those same sinister forces in America and for a people that welcome them.

Watch the videos. I had no hand in creating them.

They are the Venezuelan people today.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,

Chellim1,

I must say, I have much appreciated your participation in this thread.

When you hit on self-reliance, I knew.

Yeah, we are in agreement.

And I agree to what you just said, minus the second sentence. We cannot say that with certainty, that Venezuelans do not have the desire or drive to rid themselves of Maduro. As you mentioned, Guaido may be asking for US help (which I agree SHOULD NOT be offered), but there is still much to be done by the people of Venezuela. I will grant you that appearances at the moment are not promising, of course.

There? Better now?

I think Jager pretty much hit on the problem and why we shouldn't just jump in there like we may have in the past in other places. It's a no win situation right now for the US.
Of course he isn't saying each and everyone in a country with millions is a lightweight, he's speaking in generalities.

Thank you 220-9er.

You are correct.

I darned sure know there are a large enough number of the Venezuelan people that are willing to put their backsides on the line and depose Maduro.

Theirs is an untenable position.

Guaido is a socialist leper. However, if he would agree to assume power, conduct free and fair elections in say, two years, have the US help the interim government in adopting a copy of the US Constitution - then park a CVN offshore and send in the Marines if Maduro doesn't come out with his hands up.

This needs to be in the win column if we get involved.

America needs good relations with all of South and Central America.

Jager, we are completely in alignment then. My apologies to you if I have been in any way disrespectful.

My only fear is the Free Shit Brigade, and how to effectively win over and educate them. Would 2 years be enough?

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
Jager, we are completely in alignment then. My apologies to you if I have been in any way disrespectful.

My only fear is the Free Shit Brigade, and how to effectively win over and educate them. Would 2 years be enough?

You will never win over and educate the free shit brigade. Most of the prosperous people that owned businesses and created jobs in Venezuala, fled a few years ago as they saw the writing on the wall. All of my Venezualan customers did and they were all wealthy business owners.

Reloader-1,

Absolutely not, in my estimation. I just don't know if Guiado has what it takes to redirect the people toward a free, capitalist society.

Admittedly, I only tossed out the 2 years thing because I don't want him consolidating power long enough to get any ideas - and the thought of American occupying troops is not a good look considering America's poor record in Central and South America.

For me, convincing the Chavista's away from the tit and it's absolute corruption of the human spirit - is daunting, even for us died in the wool capitalists! There can be no reinstitution of a dictator.

I want to see investment, originating in this hemisphere, where they benefit largely; for them to acknowledge their natural resources and capitalize on them - and to see them develop agriculture and industry in addition to oil to make them a bright gemstone on the continent and NOT be so dependent upon imports.

Should the US Military be involved...my sincerest hope is that the external forces, China, Iran, Cuba and Russia, tuck tail and run.

Cuba is already faltering under recent sanctions, as is Iran (who is about to get a collective boot up their ass momentarily if they keep blustering). China is seeing tariffs go up - and not just because of trade disparity. Trump sees them meddling everywhere - and in this hemisphere. A message must be sent. Russia is under sanctions and Trump is having some success in hopefully getting the EU to step up their game against them. Poland and Hungary are good examples. Each of these agitators are in no position to engage the US militarily in a conventional fashion this side of the globe.

Russia is still licking their wounds from Syria.

Brazil and Columbia need to help, too. They are being taxed by Maduro's foibles and blunders. I suspect they both will.

Hopefully Venezuela will sort itself out, and the sooner the better. Like much of south of the border, they've had bad governance, both right and left, for centuries.
On the positive side, they do have all that oil to help with the finances once things stabilize.
This could also help push Cuba back towards the right direction sooner. A more prosperous North and South America with better governments would be a real plus for the USA.

I haven’t read the entire thread...but if they are looking for US assistance, shouldn’t we send Bernie, AOC, Dick Schumer, Dick Durbin, Pelosi, Dick Swallowswell, Kamala Harris, and the rest of the Democrat elite to help them?

Wouldn’t it be awesome for Trump to nominate them as the leading edge of relief ?

You Southern gentlemen certainly have the right idea. I'm in Savannah presently, and there is a notable sense of pragmatism everywhere I find comforting.

Savannah also just took on the former police chief of Peoria, Arizona - and he seems to be doing a great job.

Might as well send Alyssa Milano and Bette Midler. They both cut me off recently.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGguy229:
I haven’t read the entire thread...but if they are looking for US assistance, shouldn’t we send Bernie, AOC, Dick Schumer, Dick Durbin, Pelosi, Dick Swallowswell, Kamala Harris, and the rest of the Democrat elite to help them?

Wouldn’t it be awesome for Trump to nominate them as the leading edge of relief ?

Just give the Clinton Foundation the foreign aid, Hillary will surely make sure it helps the Venezualan people. Just look how much help they gave the hurricane victims in Haiti!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Chellim1,
I must say, I have much appreciated your participation in this thread.
When you hit on self-reliance, I knew.
Yeah, we are in agreement.

See, the thing about socialism... (and I know you know this) is that socialism doesn't just destroy the economy. It destroys people.
The economy is made up of millions of decisions made by ordinary people.
Socialism deprives people of their will and ability to "get ahead", to better themselves and yes, it deprives people of their self-reliance.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
And please, lay off the American Revolution comparisons. Venezuela is not attempting to throw off a major military power. There is no comparison. Bring up the American Civil War and you might have some traction. And Americans did stand up to the government, right or wrong and over 600,000 lives were lost. Where you think Venezuela resembles anything like America in it's struggle for freedom is astounding.

Sorry, I must not have been clear. I wasn’t referring to Venezuelans at all. Earlier in this thread, you said: “Americans put their asses on the line and shed blood to achieve freedom.” My point about the American Revolution was that yes, almost 250 years ago what you stated happened. Some accounts state it was about 3% of Americans (well, residents here) involved. Looking around today, I see a whole “Free shit army” of our own. While I would hope three percent (or better yet more) would rise up to fight tyranny, looking around it isn’t clear that it would happen. It is not impossible that this great country may one day be where Venezuela is today. Certainly, if the GDCs (Thank you Jim Allen) in the DemonCrat party had their way, we’d be there now.

I guess rather than pissing all over Venezuela and Venezuelans I’d be a lot more interested in learning everything we can from where they are and how they got there in an attempt to make sure we don’t end up in the same place. If they can be an object lesson of the evils of socialism, so much the better.

I thought that's exactly what was under discussion. What led to this?

Socialism/Communism. And people who want free shit - not realizing the true cost.

Not just an object lesson - an abject lesson.

There are tremendous oil resources in play. With a lot of players wanting to control the profits from it, along with the ones wanting their free shit back.

It always ends the same way. The ones receiving free shit end up wanting. It's amazing that even after years of deprivation - half the country still supports Maduro and believe it is external forces that have robbed them. Watch the videos all the way through. Their 'dignity' relies completely upon free shit.

A tough row to hoe.

And when they come for the guns for reasons of safety?

It's only for absolute control.

There are people working, trying to make this a bloodless change in control of the country. They were getting quite close, but as always, there are power plays...

There is hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
I thought that's exactly what was under discussion. What led to this?

Socialism/Communism. And people who want free shit - not realizing the true cost.

Not just an object lesson - an abject lesson.

There are tremendous oil resources in play. With a lot of players wanting to control the profits from it, along with the ones wanting their free shit back.

It always ends the same way. The ones receiving free shit end up wanting. It's amazing that even after years of deprivation - half the country still supports Maduro and believe it is external forces that have robbed them. Watch the videos all the way through. Their 'dignity' relies completely upon free shit.

A tough row to hoe.

And when they come for the guns for reasons of safety?

It's only for absolute control.

There are people working, trying to make this a bloodless change in control of the country. They were getting quite close, but as always, there are power plays...

There is hope.

Personally, I view Venezuela little different than I view many middle eastern countries run by dictators and strong men. The people in these countries function as children and are completely dependent on the government for their existence either by virtue of government force or through their lack of any 'real' desire for independence. Maduro or Guaido? Personally, I don't think it really matters. Venezuela will continue to fail under either of these men, as neither of them will ever allow Venezuelans a voice in the future of their country. Short of another country overthrowing the Maduro government and annexing the entire country under outside rule, nothing will ever change. And given how screwed up the Venezuelan people are at this point, even the takeover of their country by another country that would rebuild their economy and offer them a democratic government solution would be fought tooth and nail every step of the way. I think Venezuelans had better develop a taste for dog and cat and continue to wipe their asses with their hands, because they've screwed themselves.

“MARACAIBO, Venezuela (AP) — U.S. sanctions on oil-rich Venezuela appear to be taking hold, resulting in mile-long lines for fuel in the South American nation’s second-largest city, Maracaibo.

Some drivers said they’d had to wait almost 24 hours to fuel up, and people have been grabbing catnaps on the hoods of cars or in truck beds.

Nearing empty and stuck in line, infectious diseases doctor Yoli Urdaneta said she couldn’t make her shift to treat patients.
“I’ve spent four days trying to get gasoline,” Urdaneta said. “But I couldn’t.”

A satellite cruising over Maracaibo on Thursday captured pictures of cars lined up for a mile (1.6 kilometers) through the city to the pumps, according to by Maxar Technologies, a U.S.-based space technology company.

Russ Dallen, a Miami-based partner at the brokerage firm Caracas Capital Markets, said Sunday that stiff U.S. sanctions on top of decaying refineries has begun to hit home…”

https://apnews.com/5d179369e9e04ab693886bab1e47dab6

So sad. The thorough infrastructure makes things seem all the more hollow.

They have fallen far under bad leadership.

Average salary, $6USD/month.
$10,000Bolivars = ~$2USD for a hotdog.