quote:

One of the long term effects was the creation of a mob of non working government hand out benefits dependant, useless and mostly worthess human being subspecies.
We now have to live with at least three generations of such people. They do not have a culture of working for a living. Grand fathers, parents and children have never aspired to a real job. That breeds delinquency, irresponsibility and shitloads of brats.

Yep. That's what I was trying to say... but you said it better.
We have a growing number of people here who are addicted to the free shit too.

hopefully they can manage to get out from under the thumb of socialism.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I agree on free elections.

What is the alternative when there is no possibility of a free election ever taking place?

Just throw up one’s hands and walk away? The power disparity is such that no possible civil insurrection would succeed, particularly given foreign military involvement. Venezuelan soldiers might have issues firing on countrymen, but Russians, Chinese, Iranians and Cubans face no such qualms.

The foreigners are no problem if it comes down to shooting - the US can shoot them with impunity in terms of long term outcomes, as can any Venezuelan who manages to get their hands on a gun.

I don't know what to do about the disparity between the Bolivarians and the Venezuelans, but I can't imagine the Russians, Chinese, Cubans and Iranians are any more popular than we would be if we were in-country and propping up some right-wing dictator. Maybe the answer is to keep trying to induce a catastrophic collapse of the teetering system and hope that on the next go-round Venezuelans won't permit anyone to take power except as a result of free, fair and ongoing elections - even if the price of all this is a long-term tendency to nonalignment.

You Yanquis do the dying for us

Guaido is asking for relations with the US Military.

Venezuelans want Americans to die for their freedom because they are too cowardly to do so for themselves.

quote:

It’s not over yet.

It is as far as the 'revolution' is concerned. The cowardice of the Venezuelan people is on full parade.

quote:

Interesting article, but I have to point out utter bullshit in the 2nd and 3rd sentences. Chavez won his first election, and every election SINCE then has been utterly corrupt and invalid. He rewrote the entire Constitution in his second year...

Bear in mind that Barack Obama won elections twice. Are we to write off the US for good, as they chose leftism as well?

One final point. Only 3% of Americans actively participated in the Revolutionary War, and it took the assistance of a global power at the time (France) to ultimately win the war. Food for thought.

And with all of those fixed elections - cowardice. Nothing was done as long as the free shit rolled in. You conveniently ignore that glaring fact.

Electing Zero twice was positively bringing the US closer to revolution or civil war. Look around you. If you can't see the damage done - you're the one not paying attention. Still, your apples and oranges comparison is not lost on anyone. Had Hildebeast been elected, we'd be accelerating to the precipice.

They can't get 3% of Venezuelans to put their asses on the line for an afternoon. Again, nice try.

We're talking about two different peoples here. One that was busting their collective asses to scratch out a living that were being subjugated and oppressed and had no representation or vote - and another that is bitching because the free shit they've become accustomed to (that they voted for) has evaporated.

Guiado calls for a revolution to oust Maduro - and no-one showed up. That's about as pathetic as it gets. Now he's aware of how anemic he appears - so he's groveling to America to bail out the socialist utopia - that about half of Venezuela still longs for it's return.

Quit trying to compare Venezuelans to Americans.

Americans put their asses on the line and shed blood to achieve freedom.

Until Venezuelans do that - in sufficient enough numbers - they enjoy living with a boot on their neck.

There are approximately 7 million males from 15-45 in Venezuela. How many Iranians, Cubans, Russians and Chinese troops are in Venezuela?

There's your answer.

Jager,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thankfully, the fat lady hasn’t even warmed up yet. It will be interesting to return to your last post by the end of the summer...

For your personal elucidation, I’d read a bit about the wars of independence in LatAm, which had approximately 10x as many casualties as the American revolution. The will to fight is there; I will gladly share some death records in my immediate family alone.

Doubt the comparison will change.

The love their caudillos.

Your thoughts are notably absent.

My interest is not having our troops in direct contact with Chinese or Russian soldiers over a people that, at this juncture, are unwilling to even face off with collectivos.

Jager, you seem to have a very personal and vivid opinion on this, at least. My thoughts are on this entire thread, starting on page 2.

I know of what I speak.

deepocean - yes.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: reloader-1,

I know their history.

Venezuela got behind on payments to Germany, England and Italy at the turn of the last century - and refused to pay their debts. Both Germany and England engaged in blockades to try and convince the debtor nation to pay up, but Venezuela refused.

Venezuela was counting on the US to intervene, the conflict occurring in the western hemisphere.

As Vice-President, in July 1901, Teddy Roosevelt said that "...if any South American country misbehaves toward any European country, let the European country spank it."

quote:

The will to fight is there

"Someone get the US Military on the phone."

Guaido is drawing Beto at UNLV numbers.

If it is 'there' - it sure isn't showing up anywhere it matters.

You said earlier in the thread that you hoped no Americans would have to die in the current affairs in Venezuela.

No thoughts on Guaido moving to have Yanquis die for the liberation of Venezuela - when Venezuelans seemingly won't?

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

quote:

The will to fight is there

You said earlier in the thread that you hoped no Americans would have to die in the current affairs in Venezuela.

No thoughts on Guaido moving to have Yanquis die for the liberation of Venezuela - when Venezuelans seemingly won't?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that Guaido is, and speaks, for the entirety of Venezuela... and yet in the same breath mention how he has barely any influence at this point.

Which is it?

I never said that.

Your desperation in trying attribute such a posit to me reeks of desperation.

As does your inability or unwillingness to contest much of anything that is presented. Most recently, the Venezuelan Beto's Hail Mary pass.

I posted the links to his failure in motivating Venezuelans to stand up for themselves - and in the wake of that - his latest attempt to find someone to do the actual work.

He IS the single figure trying to act as if he does have the support to assume power.

And he is failing.

But behind 30+ million (or is it 15 million - as if it matters) cowering free shit army members that refuse to stand up for anything different than what they have become accustomed to; you can't really fault the guy for pursing his lips and whispering sweet nothings towards the Pentagon.

Not the first time for Venezuela.

120,000 active military members.

14,000,000 males of military age.

1 to 116 odds.

Largely crickets.

And that's IF the Venezuelan military is willing to fire on their own people.

Again, how many foreign troops are backing Maduro? And how many of them would, knowing there were a few million people coming for them if they did?

Oh, wait. They're not coming.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,

Jager, you bring a very personal aspect to this, one which I am baffled about.

I understand your points, and echo many of them. I have no interest in any Americans dying for Venezuela, and have stated that repeatedly.

My main point is that this is nowhere near over. Guaido has shot his bolt, which is obvious. He is not the only fighter in this conflict!

The 1 to 116 odds are slightly modified by the fact that none of the 116 have any firearms whatsoever... and life is far cheaper in Latin America. My uncle was thrown down a several hundred foot ravine for the money in his wallet, for example.

My apologies if there is a personal background for you in this affair, but I don't understand the animosity to a fellow forum member.

reloaded-1, you sure seem to not take personally what Jager seems dead set on making very personal. Good on you.

Jager, you seem to have one heck of a burr under your saddle blanket. Care to share why you are so negative toward the Venezuelans?

One thought that occurred: It was almost 250 years ago when roughly three percent of Americans rose up and fought to defeat British tyranny. We have certainly developed our own “free shit army” here in the US of A. I wonder if we could muster ever three percent these days? I hope so, but looking around I see an awful lot of folks that I just don’t see coming to the party. I hope it never comes to that, and if it does I hope I am wrong about those folks, but...

My dislike is for communists/socialists. And those that support them. Especially those that expect others to do the heavy lifting for them after years at the trough. Their true nature comes out when the feed dries up.

And we're seeing that here. If my pointing that out makes anyone uncomfortable, they may wish to question their need to point back centuries ago - where they may have held some vestige of dignity, rather than acknowledge the wailing of cowards in the present that were too stupid to grasp the portend of what they voted for - over the last few decades.

This is now. And it isn't here (the USA). Not yet. And all the alluding to what is happening in Venezuela real time as if there is some correlation to events in America has all the effect of pissing in the ocean in a hurricane. We may get our turn here, but the current venue under discussion is Venezuela. And reminiscing about Bolivarian grandeur in days of old is pretty lame, actually.

You're only as good as your latest win.

Or your latest screw-up.

We’ll get our turn here, rest assured. Thus my “tails tucked” comment earlier in the thread.

At one point in history, Venezuelans overthrew the government because it only slightly raised gas prices – and raised the fare on public transportation 30%.

That sure seems a long ways away looking at current events.

“…and life is far cheaper in Latin America.”

Again, history has demonstrated that.

Also their love of communism. And dictators. You know that as well as I do.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14476

Many Venezuelans see Guaido as a CIA puppet. Enough that they would prefer to continue to lick Maduro’s boots rather than (they suspect) the possibility the Yanqui dogs wanting a percentage of their free shit for liberating them. Cubans, Iranians, Russians, Chinese – them they fear. But they fear self-determination more than anything.

Within the last week:

https://venezuelanalysis.com/video/14466

Pretty hard to have a revolution against a communist/socialist dictator when half your people can only talk about the free shit they miss, maintaining Maduro’s hold on power and how it is the “genocidal government” of the USA that is keeping them down.

How much oil did we seize in Iraq?

And again, in none of the coverage of everything going on down there – do you see starving people. In fact, most look like they should start up some Planet Fitness franchises.

Animus? Sure. And it’s directed at Communists/Socialists and those too cowardly to stand up to them. 3.5 million have left. You have a passport and you’re not there.

That you infer my contempt and mocking of a people too stupid to see the forest for the trees is somehow directed at you only highlights your self-claimed ‘position’ as an authority on the subject simply because of your bloodline - has been made to feel some discomfort. That’s on you.

I’m presenting coverage of events and stating my opinion about the players and what is being presented.

A history teacher once asked the class; what is the easiest way to determine if a country is capitalist or communist?

Who owns the means of production.

I’m only adding that having a culture that has a large free shit army is also a good indicator. And when the free shit army loses their free shit and culturally have no knowledge of or desire for self-determination – and they are willing to blame others for the barren shelves and reaffirm their support. While those that think something different might be in order largely sit idly by and refuse to have skin in the game.

You certainly have “personal background” in this “affair” (sounds like James Comey right there, saying it’s a “matter”). Which has a propensity to be subjective, rather than objective. I’m being objective. Please try not to project.

In the Federal War fought in Venezuela – a civil war – estimates are a few hundred thousand died out of a population of about a million. Over things nowhere near as critical today. The country has a long history of violence, insurrection, coups and struggles between liberals and conservatives since throwing off the yoke of Spain. The liberals have predominantly won.

Things haven’t changed much. Except for the willingness to fight for themselves.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,

I hate communists, socialists, and authoritarians with my entire being.

My wife’s family fled Cuba in the 60’s, after the head of the family served 7 years in prison. My sister-in-law is a legal immigrant from Cuba, coming over in the 2000’s. Her stories are unbelievable.

Venezuela is where the US is heading. They, too fought a war of independence 200 years ago, but as 0-0 and others mentioned, the free shit brigade is endemic in our societies.

Let me clear: we buried an entire branch of our family fighting one of the Caudillos you bring up constantly, just 2 generations back.

Quite frankly, you have been downright insulting to me personally, and I don’t know you from Adam.

slosig,

I've pretty much stated my reasons for my opinions. I don't have a "burr" anywhere.

I'm discussing current events in Venezuela and the lack of initiative of the people, divided or not, to end their suffering at the hands of a thieving bus driver.

And most recently, appeals for US Military intervention because they lack the fortitude or courage to do anything for themselves.

They're asking for us to put skin in the game, with China, Russia, Iran and Cuba in the potential line of fire. Where is theirs?

When someone declares they possess higher knowledge, platitudes and borderlines on contempt for what are glaring facts - I'm going to engage that.

quote:

I know of what I speak.

quote:

Thankfully, the fat lady hasn’t even warmed up yet. It will be interesting to return to your last post by the end of the summer...

It's self-effacing comments like that - devoid of any address of actual events on the ground that - when the prospect of US troops shedding blood for a people that placed themselves in their own selfish pathetic circumstances - is going to have me point out the argument anemia.

And please, lay off the American Revolution comparisons. Venezuela is not attempting to throw off a major military power. There is no comparison. Bring up the American Civil War and you might have some traction. And Americans did stand up to the government, right or wrong and over 600,000 lives were lost. Where you think Venezuela resembles anything like America in it's struggle for freedom is astounding.

I have respect for every member in this thread. But the arguments are not supported by the facts and events on the ground.

Jager, I’ve lived and worked in Venezuela as recently as 4 years ago. My cousin and other family members are actually opposition leaders... if that doesn’t classify as “I know of what I speak”, then I am beyond baffled.

Also, this is not over yet, although I understand that you think otherwise.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: reloader-1,

I'm not insulting anyone. I'm pointing out the failure of Venezuelans today - and that they have a history of subjugation to tyranny - an of perpetuating it.

Let me be equally clear.

Half of my family died in WWII in Europe fighting the Nazis. It didn't help that they were fighting on both sides. I never knew my grandparents except for pictures. My mother was raped and abused repeatedly from the age of 10 years old by German soldiers. When the Americans crossed the Rhine and entered her village, she ran and hid because of what she knew of soldiers. When the Americans proffered food, medical assistance (she remembers them ridding her of persistent lice) and compassion - and it was not followed with demands - she realized she had been lied to. Ever seen that picture of Hitler in armor on a horse? She told me that picture hung in her classroom as a little girl. Even into her golden years, she would cry about her childhood. How every man (the older ones beyond conscription age) left in her village abused and raped her, because her family had been to poor to keep her as the war went on and passed her off to strangers. Every male in my mothers family died fighting that war and my grandparents died of cancer - largely untreated.

Sure, lets go there.

My attitude about Germans today is they are dumb-asses and are reaping what they have sown. They, too, seemingly have lost the will to defend themselves. My commentary regarding them and their slow demise under the EU is equally scathing and pointed. And you can bet that, NATO be damned, should the Russians begin to roll on in, I'm just as apt to say they need to reap what they sow. Socialist bastards.

I held two passports, too. Here and there. I renounced the latter because, as I have stated earlier, you don't carry a passport for a country you won't pick up a rifle for. If you don't have that reservation, that's your choice.

American sacrifice and Venezuelan sacrifice are two different Petri dishes.

I'm not even sure what your contention is with me. Am I posting incorrect facts? You fail to counter 90% of what I post - and are defaulting back to I'm "insulting you personally"?

Triggered. Okay.

quote:

I hate communists, socialists, and authoritarians with my entire being.

So we're all in agreement then?

Jager,

I’ve agreed with damn near everything you’ve posted, and disagreed with only the contention that this is over, and that all Venezuelans are “x” or “y”.

I have not been “triggered”, “reek of desperation” or other words you have used to describe me. Good day, sir.