If anyone needs to understand or if the already-knowledgeable could use a reminder why the war needed to be ended as soon as possible and by whatever means necessary, pick up any of countless books about how the Japanese army treated everyone under their control, both POWs and occupied peoples.

I have read many such accounts myself dating back 60+ years to my teens, and I’ve just started another, The Devil’s Doctors: Japanese Human Experiments on Allied Prisoners of War by Mark Felton (yes, the YouTube guy). As I’ve gotten older, my tolerance for reading such accounts has diminished, but this one evidently covers specifics that I was less familiar with, and I’m curious about.

It’s impossible to think of strong enough adjectives to describe how depraved and horrible the Japanese army’s conduct was from its invasion of China in 1931 to when the US finally ended the war. And although apologists will point to the fact that surrender was considered to be dishonorable for military personnel and that their own low-ranking soldiers were treated brutally, what is usually ignored is that they treated other Asians as badly as the POWs, and in many cases worse. Descriptions of what Unit 731 and similar operations under its control did to Chinese civilians and others are beyond imagining. As is true in any war, many innocent Japanese suffered for the sins of their fathers, but the use of the atomic bombs helped to end that suffering sooner than later.

My great uncle was a WW1 veteran and a civilian contractor working at the first test site; he witnessed this test. He retired and lived his life in Albuquerque and became a passionate artist, painting landscapes of the southwest. He painted the first atomic bomb detonation from his memory. I think one of my siblings has it. I'd like to post a photo here when I locate it.

As sigfreund noted above, the use of the atomic bomb probably reduced Japanese casualties too. It induced Hirohito to surrender.

I asked GROK what the plus/minus on Japanese lives was by ending the war with the bomb vs the conventional invasion plan.
The number was uncertain but clearly saved millions of Japanese lives, not to mention ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichijima_incident

A tiny example of why using the bombs was the right thing to do at the time...

60

quote:

Originally posted by redstone:
In my attempt to help revive the thread I give you my favorite atomic bomb movie

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oQMnC7AM7jc?si=LEtuoeyTLbkRU7V4" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

One of the best documentaries ever and a required post whenever Trinity is talked about.

quote:

Originally posted by Tn226:

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:

The Nevada test site on the other hand, has a lot of craters and there is information on most with a click of the mouse.

There is a tour available. It's always booked solid months in advance so planning is required.

https://www.nnss.gov/pages/Pub...reach/NNSStours.html

It is truly a fascinating place. I worked there in 1965/66 as well as at the Mississippi test site before the test ban. I can tell you that watching the ground rise is awe inspiring

I think the tours of the actual test site are on a "hold" status.
We recently toured the Atomic Testing Museum in downtown Las Vegas. It's well worth checking out if the subject interests you. A very comprehensive display.

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichijima_incident

A tiny example of why using the bombs was the right thing to do at the time...

60

Explain. How does this incident justify the use of atomic weapons?

^^^^
Reduced Allied AND Japanese casualties.

The A-bomb induced Hirohito to surrender.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
^^^^
Reduced Allied AND Japanese casualties.

The A-bomb induced Hirohito to surrender.

I'm not questioning the rationale of using the bomb to reduce casualties and end the war quicker. That is beyond dispute, in my opinion, and using it was the right call.

My question for 1860ARMY is how a war-crime incident provides sufficient justification. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the comment, but the implication seems to be that Japanese soldiers doing terrible things justified the bombings.

One war crime didn’t justify much of anything, otherwise anything could have been justified against any and all of the combatants during that or virtually any other war.

The way I interpreted the described incident, which was, except for the people involved, tiny in comparison with countless others, is that literally every additional day that the war lasted meant the commission of additional war crimes. One of the things that the end of the war stopped was the deliberate—and high command-ordered—murder of Japanese-held POWs and other detainees.

What the Japanese forces had done and were continuing to do were not the only things that justified the bombings—and not only the atomic bombings—but they were the primary justifications. Had the Japanese not started the war, there would have been no bombings of Japan necessary to end it.

Perhaps using the war crime incident shows how far the Japanese would go to continue the war. There were plans for kids with sharpen sticks to attack any landing force. Now add in suicide bombers on the land, the sea and in the air. It would’ve been a horrific battle, resulting in millions of casualties between Allied forces, Japanese, and Asians, as the risk of starvation was very real for the entire region.


As for the Japanese playing victim, as a result of two atomic bombs, that wouldn’t have happened if it wasn’t for that cocksucker MacArthur. MacArthur wanted to move up from being the Grand Puba of the Philippine islands to being the real emperor of Japan. Hirohito should’ve been allowed to remain the emperor for no more than a year and then charged with war crimes, convicted and executed. Due to MacArthur, we didn’t rub the Japanese faces into their mess like we did the Germans. Hell we didn’t even convict anybody for crimes against humanity for the section 731 stuff. That was the “medical research“ facility in Manchuria.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
MacArthur wanted to move up from being the Grand Puba of the Philippine islands to being the real emperor of Japan.

Based on everything I’ve read about the man, I would agree.
I don’t know, though, how that affected the decisions about which Japanese war criminals were brought to justice for their crimes, and in particular Hirohito. MacArthur certainly had a major influence on those decisions, but ultimately they weren’t his. His suggestions could have been overruled by leaders in Washington, including Truman.

And although some authors have made what seem like good cases that Hirohito was more involved in at least tacitly approving certain criminal acts than was and is generally recognized, that wasn’t obvious early on. He was evidently considered by many to have been an ignorant figurehead. Even before the end of the war, some Japanese such as the head of Unit 731, Shiro Ishii, recognized what was coming and made efforts to destroy records and otherwise conceal their crimes. The “He/I didn’t know” defense was very common, including an early claim that it was a group of rogue officers who were responsible for Unit 731, and the hierarchy wasn’t aware of what it was doing. Those efforts to cover up culpability would certainly have been extended to the emperor.

The Japanese should have had their faces rubbed in their national war guilt far more than was done, and perhaps that would have changed attitudes that persist to this day. The reasons why that was not done, though, were far more nuanced than MacArthur’s personal self-aggrandizement. Those reasons would require the books that have been written about them to adequately discuss.

quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
i will forever be amazed Truman had the stones to drop (2) of those on Japan
< snip >

There were only two bombs. A third as a couple of weeks away. After that production would increase and Japan would suffer more.
Reading on the public’s reaction there was a lot of joy at the surrender. I’m sure a lot of prays were said by those scheduled to invade and their families

MacArthur had a lot of clout in DC, while everyone else was fighting the actual war, he was controlling the narrative. He did this enough to be given (notice I DID NOT say awarded) the Medal of Honor for basically screwing up the Philippines and fleeing. He parked his aircraft in a similar manner as the Pearl Harbor attack in spite of being warned in advance. Yet these Generals and Admirals fell from grace while Mac prospered. Mac controlled the narrative and the press, along with his supporters in Congress and the Government, so it would have been almost impossible to go against him. Hell, look at what Truman went through to finally relieve him in Korea.

As for the bombs, since the first one was a Uranian based bomb, the Japanese High Command thought the USA only had one or two. It was after Nagasaki that the Japanese knew we also had plutonium-based bombs which meant we might have up to 14.

JSB - If you want to a great read on the Pacific War theatre and the clashes between Mac and the US Navy (King, Spruance, Nimitz, etc.) pick up "Twilight of The Gods" by Ian Toll.

Toll’s books are great.

For anyone interested in they whys and hows of the treatment of Japanese war criminals after their surrender, the book I mentioned above, The Devil’s Doctors, has some discussion that I wasn’t familiar with even though I had previously read about the war crimes trials. According to source(s) cited by the author Felton, the issue of not pursuing charges in connection with the activities of Unit 731 went all the way up to Truman.

It’s been claimed by more than one author that the US was more concerned about learning about Japan’s biological and chemical warfare research and development than trying to hold anyone criminally responsible for their use in China. By that time many people in the US (like Patton) had already recognized that the Soviet Union was going to be the next major concern and those who were aware of the Japanese BW and CW efforts wanted to keep that information out of Soviet hands—and for good reason.

Although not clearly stated, the Felton book intimates that the US wanted exclusive access to the information to further its own offensive BW and CW programs. That’s possibly true of course, but most of the actual US efforts in those lines were clearly directed at defensive measures—unlike what the Soviet Union later did in direct contravention of international agreements.

Another tidbit I picked up recently was about why American aircraft weren’t better protected before the attack on Clark Airfield (which occurred less than 11 hours after the start of the Pearl Harbor attack). Reportedly it wasn’t possible to spread them out farther due to the swampy terrain in the area that had limited the physical size of the field. Presumably funds hadn’t been available to do anything about it; as an example, the same account mentioned that camouflaging the aircraft was limited due to the lack of green paint(!). There are lots of things that could be said about MacArthur before, during, and after the war, but he was hardly the only one responsible for much of what it’s fashionable to blame him for.

I believe I read the information about the Clark field attack in Victor Davis Hanson’s The Second World Wars. Other interesting accounts about MacArthur are in Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith. D.D. Eisenhower served under MacArthur in the Philippines.

quote:

Another tidbit I picked up recently was about why American aircraft weren’t better protected before the attack on Clark Airfield (which occurred less than 11 hours after the start of the Pearl Harbor attack). Reportedly it wasn’t possible to spread them out farther due to the swampy terrain in the area that had limited the physical size of the field. Presumably funds hadn’t been available to do anything about it; as an example, the same account mentioned that camouflaging the aircraft was limited due to the lack of green paint(!). There are lots of things that could be said about MacArthur before, during, and after the war, but he was hardly the only one responsible for much of what it’s fashionable to blame him for.

Mac was the Commander IN Charge so he should have received all fault but instead he and his staff blamed others like his Air Commander. Kimmel and Short were relieved in Hawaii, in spite of numerous requests for scouting planes in the months leading up to the attack. If I remember correctly, they had 3 long range scout planes when they needed 18-24 at the very least. I believe there was a plan for the arriving bombers to do scout missions as training flights. They were also advised that the mostly likely attack would be from the local Japanese population (and there were lots of spies there, charting all ship movement into and out of Pearl) and the main attack was expected in the Philippines and British China.

The Air Commander in Philippines was Brereton under Mac and he, along with Mac were ordered and warned to disperse aircraft, which Mac would not authorize. Since he didn't have permission to disperse the aircraft, he kept them flying and scouting. Brereton had a mission ready to bomb Japanese targets but Mac had Command Paralysis and did not authorize it until right before (after first refusing it and then a few minutes later authorizing it) the Japanese attack on Clark, which occurred while a lot of aircraft were getting fueled and refueled and armed for the mission. Fog on the Japanese end delayed their take off by 6 hours. Brereton was blamed but the powers in the War Department subsequently moved him to Cairo to help form up the Air Forces there and them onto Britian and Europe where he served quite well.

So, Mac subsequently fled to Australia, leaving the Philippines, had his cronies in Congress award him a Medal of Honor, and named himself Supreme Allied Commander of Pacific, Admiral King said no fucking way, and Mac's new title was Supreme Commander, Southwest Pacific Area (1942–1945), which then became Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (1945–1951), and then Commander, United Nations Command (1950–1951). Notice that the Navy made sure ANY ship or sub docking in Australia had orders to go somewhere else as Mac and his staff were trying to commandeer them, usually without success.