Truman killed more people fire bombing Tokyo.

It was the era of "total war" and our modern sensibilities weren't a factor.

The Japanese got exactly what they deserved for Pearl Harbor, the PI, the Rape of Nanking, and the countless other atrocities they committed.

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Originally posted by Sig209:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
i will forever be amazed Truman had the stones to drop (2) of those on Japan
< snip >

Why?

because they were basically 100% non-military targets. he killed 100,000+ civilians with that decision

what percentage of people in the same position would make that decision? it's unknowable -- but its not a big one I'd bet

bet you 'modern' politicians wouldn't do it

---------------------------------

You are looking at this incident from the perspective of Truman's future; i.e., our present.

Truman wasn't burdened with the political ramifications of 60 years of Cold War tensions between the US/USSR. He made the decision then and there, based on the precedents and norms of his day.

Those norms saw practically EVERY major German and Japanese cities (your "non-military" targets) firebombed and blasted to rubble. The deaths of 140,000 people (estimates of Hiroshima + Nagasaki deaths) absolutely pales in comparison with the 60,000,000 deaths from all of WWII. This represents 2/10th of a percent of all those casualties. Besides, in WWII, civilians WERE considered "military targets." The fact that we wring our hands over a single case of 'collateral damage' or injured child in A-stan or Iraq prevents us from realizing that killing civilians by the thousands (and hundreds of thousands) was quite 'normal' in 1945.

Also, the two atomic bombs ended the war with far fewer deaths than any other option (either invasion or blockade to starve out the Japanese). Both would have killed MILLIONS of Japanese civilians. Heck, as it was, there was concern that up to a million Japanese would starve and/or freeze to death in the winter of 1945-6, and that was AFTER we went in with humanitarian relief and started to help rebuild their infrastructure.

Also, there were something like 7 million Japanese in uniform in late 1945; many of them were troops occupying China. Who was going to go root them out? They wouldn't surrender - Japanese fought to the death. Even killing a tenth of those soldiers and sailors would have been several times more deaths than the atomic bombs took.

Oh, allied POWs. There were 140,000 or so in Japanese custody at war's end. All dead. The Japanese had kill orders to murder all allied POWs in custody so they could not be liberated. For me, it was worth it all to nuke those two cities just to save those 140,000 POWs.

Personally, I believe Japan should thank us for nuking them, since it ended the war with a fraction of the casualties that any other option would have entailed. The Japanese knew by 1943 that they COULD NOT WIN. They fought on for two full years, throwing away their own lives and those of their citizens, out of pride and arrogance. If the Japanese government did not care about the lives of Japanese civilians, why should Truman have?


Oh, and a lot of the people who 'argued against the atomic bombs' ONLY did so after the war (often while running for political office, when they took stances 180 degrees from their war-time opinions).

The atomic bombs saved hundreds of thousands of allied lives and MILLIONS of Japanese lives. Period.

Oh, and another thing. People pretend that Nagasaki and Hiroshima would have survived intact along with all their citizens if it weren't for the eevil atomic bombs. The ONLY reason both cities had been spared up to this point is because they were put on no-strike lists. They were specifically spared so atomic bombs could attack 'pristine' cities, to make sure the effects of the bombings were most noticeable. Had it not been for the atomic raids, both cities would have been fire-bombed, and thousands of people still would have died.

If Truman had held back using the bombs, he would have been impeached once the public found out we had these 'wonder weapons' but refused to use them.

There were millions of people alive at the end of WWII who otherwise would have died ONLY BECAUSE we nuked Japan.

The firebombing of Tokyo by B-29's killed more people than both Atomic bombs combined. Of course in a Bomber to people killed ratio, the 2 atomic devices take first place.

As far as Japan deserving it? Perhaps, but what the British Empire did to China with Opium, was much worse than the rape of Nanking.

And China's civil war between the Nationalist and Communists opened the door for Japan in to China. Where there is chaos there is opportunity.

Somewhere I read in how the average Japanese Army grunt was treated and it was pretty bad. So it is no wonder some of the atrocities committed, either with approval from the top, or without.

On the demonstration of the bomb:https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945/debate.htm

And here:https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/leaders-and-controversies/transcript/g5cs2s3t.htm

On this day in 1945, at 5:29:45 a.m.

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Originally posted by shovelhead:... Speaking of Jumbo, a piece of it is in Kittrell Park aka the Plaza in the middle of town. ...

I always wondered what the outcome of the shot would have been had Jumbo been employed.

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:

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Originally posted by shovelhead:... Speaking of Jumbo, a piece of it is in Kittrell Park aka the Plaza in the middle of town. ...

I always wondered what the outcome of the shot would have been had Jumbo been employed.

sigmonkey,

As you probably know Jumbo was originally designed and built by Babcock and Wilcox(https://www.babcock.com/en/about/history) to contain the fission materials as there was much concern that the design would not work and it would be much easier to salvage the Plutonium in an enclosed vessel than picking it up off the desert floor. As time went by confidence increased in the bomb's detonators making Jumbo unneeded. Not to mention the problem of 214 tons of radioactive steel being vaporized and sent over the landscape. General Groves was concerned that Congress would find out about the expenditure that was now useless and decided to utilize it to see what would happen to it. The tower it was suspended from was destroyed, Jumbo fell on it's side undamaged. It was later blown up with conventional explosives, it is still out there with the ends blown off of it, one of the pieces is in Kittrell Park today. It was originally referred to in error as a piece of the bomb casing which was later corrected to name it as part of Jumbo.

Jumbo was brought across the country on a specially constructed rail car and brought to the test site via a newly constructed siding at Pope N.M., thereafter referred to as Pope Siding.http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/240122.aspx Some photos here.


I was also impressed that they used the fire department to fill water tankers with potable water. As I was a volunteer with that fire department at night while on standby between reading and exploring that building I felt the history there. One thing comes to mind it was pretty much an independent organization before it was officially absorbed into city government in about 1974. There was a framed testimonial in the training room which also serves as the kitchen area from some brewery that acknowledged it being the only fire house he ever visited with beer on tap (in the 30's if memory is correct) and going into the basement and seeing a fuse panel with one circuit marked in pencil "beer cooler".

The enriched Uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima was never tested before deployment because the design is so simple, about as sophisticated as shotgun loaded with a slug. The Plutonium bombs (Gadget and Fat Man) had to be tested because they depended on a near perfect implosion crushing the core uniformly to increase its density long enough to trigger the nuclear explosion.

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Originally posted by shovelhead:...

sigmonkey,

As you probably know...

I do, and that is the reason of my post. < 200 tons of steel and a foot and a half thick, I am not sure it would have been "consumed" in the explosion, or if it would have created an overpressure condition which may have altered the yield to some degree.

Interesting to ponder, and just a thing that stuck with me. (considering the guys were playing with core halves using a screwdriver...Oops, Bye Slotin...)

(I had quite a bit of study of "special weapons and devices" back in my US of Air Force days, as it was my primary specialty code, that later changed and then changed again, cuz Uncle Sugar decides when, where, with whom and how your gonna dance, especially the old school TAC Trained Killer...)

76 years ago today.

Next chances to visit Trinity Site are October 2, 2021 and April 2, 2022.

https://www.wsmr.army.mil/Trinity/Pages/Home.aspx

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Somewhere I read in how the average Japanese Army grunt was treated

Somewhere I read years ago, about the supplies to the Pacific Island troops on each side.

Whatever that source may be, IIRC it claimed the Emperor's Army averaged around 17 pounds of supplies, while the US troops averaged around 8 1/2 tons.

Also, the Japanese were a different culture at that time. Whatever the Emperor said, they did with enthusiasm.
From the mid-1930's until Hirohito told them to stop in late 1945, they raped and pillaged anywhere in Asia they went.
If things were different and they had the bomb and the delivery systems, they would have thought nothing of turning the US into a wasteland.

"Somewhere I read years ago, about the supplies to the Pacific Island troops on each side.
Whatever that source may be, IIRC it claimed the Emperor's Army averaged around 17 pounds of supplies, while the US troops averaged around 8 1/2 tons."

That was where their plan was faulty. The intended to enslave the people as they went and live off the supplies and resources they captured.
When they were stopped in southern New Guinea, they ran out of supplies and many were starving as they were beat back by the US and Australian forces. They were forced into cannibalism in some cases.

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If Truman had held back using the bombs, he would have been impeached once the public found out we had these 'wonder weapons' but refused to use them.

This was of great concern of the Truman administration at the time. The American people were becoming weary of the length and expense of the war. - "Truman", David McCullough.

Cool history, but no thanks on visiting those sites. I get why people would want to visit but I got enough of that stuff growing up in close proximity to Arco, Idaho (AEC: Atomic Energy Commission in those days). If you want to visit a cool place visit Arco, a couple of "minor" nuclear accidents happened there that may interest some.

77 years ago. It's real high on my bucket list but I never manage to make it. Next chance is October 15, 2022.

https://home.army.mil/wsmr/ind...nity-site-open-house

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Originally posted by Sig209:
because they were basically 100% non-military targets.

One of many anti-American-invented zombie myths about the bombings that has been refuted by any number of authoritative accounts that are readily available for anyone with true interest rather than indoctrinated ideas.