quote:

Yep. Sums it up nicely. I think the police should stop responding to things of this nature to be blunt.

I've long been a proponent of not answering OD calls - especially for frequent flyers

all the people that are put at risk responding, all the assets wasted

all for someone doing their best to commit suicide

let them

and you won't have to deal with them again

All of us that did the job for any length of time can agree we dealt with the same mentally unstable folks a good part of the time. You knew their names and addresses as you dealt with them weekly even daily.

There are a LOT of mentally ill people out there and LE has few tools to deal with them.

quote:

There are a LOT of mentally ill people out there and LE has few tools to deal with them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The state of Mississsippi is being sued by the federal government for failure to provide services for the mentally ill. In the midst of that the local mental health center announced their closure. {They found some state money and are operating at less than full capacity at present.}

I am well aware of the problem. THE FIRST person to complain was the Chief of Police who was majorly upset. In our small community, the police killed two of them last year. The mental health center was scheduled to do some basic training on dealing with the mentally ill, but it was cancelled due to financial concerns.

70% burns. Horrible.

Trying not to imagine what that feels like.

doubt that anyone dealing with mentally ill people can force them to take the medicine that helps keep them on an even keel. Or compel them to seek / accept treatment.

Institutionalized maybe. On the streets, nah.
^^^^^^^^^^
That is an incorrect statement. Every state has procedures for filing affidavits for individuals who are mentally ill, AND are dangerous to themselves or others by reason of a recent act. {In Florida it is called the Baker Act.}. Admittedly, the hospital becomes a revolving door, as the same mentally ill patients are admitted and then discharged back into the community. Expecting cops to have extensive knowledge about this subject is ridiculous.

For years TASER has specifically warned about using the device in the presence of flammable liquids, and that should have been covered in the officer’s training. The company has very strict standards about what must be covered in training to become certified to use TASERs, so I’m guessing the officer wasn’t paying attention or someone decided to “condense” the training because it takes too long.

In addition, more and more LE agencies aren’t responding to “suicidal subject” calls unless there is a danger to others. But if they do, the officers should understand that it isn’t always necessary to do something.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
doubt that anyone dealing with mentally ill people can force them to take the medicine that helps keep them on an even keel. Or compel them to seek / accept treatment.

Institutionalized maybe. On the streets, nah.
^^^^^^^^^^
That is an incorrect statement. Every state has procedures for filing affidavits for individuals who are mentally ill, AND are dangerous to themselves or others by reason of a recent act. {In Florida it is called the Baker Act.}. Admittedly, the hospital becomes a revolving door, as the same mentally ill patients are admitted and then discharged back into the community. Expecting cops to have extensive knowledge about this subject is ridiculous.

Involuntary administration of medications is another matter.

Hickory shampoo would solve a lot of problems...

But because it looks bad on the news at eight, they took it away.

Then technology tried to fill that gap (Taser or OC)
But they don’t work all the time. And Taser has a training system, but if your people don’t take the training about not using it around flammable materials, you get someone set on fire.

There is no “one answer” to every problem, but not limiting cops to “this looks better” items, ie ASPs expandable baton, would sure make the cops jobs easier.

Btw my thoughts on the ASP are that it’s only useful to scratch your back under your body armor. It is completely useless a a baton ...completely.

And I’m in the “we shouldn’t have to deal with mental suicidal calls” but I know that the cops do...

The family is only upset because the cops fucked up and they are seeing a paycheck from the city....had it turned out ok, would they be suing? Nope.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
doubt that anyone dealing with mentally ill people can force them to take the medicine that helps keep them on an even keel. Or compel them to seek / accept treatment.

Institutionalized maybe. On the streets, nah.
^^^^^^^^^^
That is an incorrect statement. Every state has procedures for filing affidavits for individuals who are mentally ill, AND are dangerous to themselves or others by reason of a recent act. {In Florida it is called the Baker Act.}. Admittedly, the hospital becomes a revolving door, as the same mentally ill patients are admitted and then discharged back into the community. Expecting cops to have extensive knowledge about this subject is ridiculous.

You're taking an opinion I have on a completely different issue out of context, but that's kind of your deal, so......not surprising.

At least you're consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
Hickory shampoo would solve a lot of problems...

But because it looks bad on the news at eight, they took it away.

Then technology tried to fill that gap (Taser or OC)
But they don’t work all the time. And Taser has a training system, but if your people don’t take the training about not using it around flammable materials, you get someone set on fire.

There is no “one answer” to every problem, but not limiting cops to “this looks better” items, ie ASPs expandable baton, would sure make the cops jobs easier.

Btw my thoughts on the ASP are that it’s only useful to scratch your back under your body armor. It is completely useless a a baton ...completely.

And I’m in the “we shouldn’t have to deal with mental suicidal calls” but I know that the cops do...

The family is only upset because the cops fucked up and they are seeing a paycheck from the city....had it turned out ok, would they be suing? Nope.

Yep.

My department even has a specialty group that rolls around with a mental health professional to help with these calls.

Helps to share the workload, but the end result is the same. They come right back on the street.

quote:

Involuntary administration of medications is another matter.

^^^^
You are correct. In that case a court order is indicated which may be diffcult to come by.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
Yep.

My department even has a specialty group that rolls around with a mental health professional to help with these calls.

Helps to share the workload, but the end result is the same. They come right back on the street.

I mentioned a family member earlier in the thread, though he's not shown himself to be violent, its the same cycle. He won't take his meds, folks have tried to help, he ends up violating his parole and back to the big house. Not much anyone can do. He was homeless for a time during winter in the north.....was a tough deal, if he gets in a scuffle with law enforcement and the worst happens.....its his choices that led him to that circumstance.

I simply do not understand the officer's escalation of force in this instance. It does not look good when your local LEO from some jerkwater town PD doesn't know his way around the Force Continuum.

The most valuable (and dangerous) tool you have is not on your tool belt. It's between your ears.

Get a clue.

Also, if you are frustrated by the waste of energy, resources and manpower it takes to deal with the mentally challenged portion of our society, perhaps it's time to find employment that doesn't cause you such frustration.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

Also, if you are frustrated by the waste of energy, resources and manpower it takes to deal with the mentally challenged portion of our society, perhaps it's time to find employment that doesn't cause you such frustration.

H&K-Guy

I don’t know if you mean the particular office in this mess (who deserves what he gets, Taser training is standardized and national, and unquestionably says not to taze people covered in flammable substances, even pepper spray if you aren’t 100% sure it’s not flammable) or officers in general.

But frustrated is exactly right. Some nights we have to tackle people coming out of the ED after having just been evaluated and cleared for mental health crisis...and then try to run into traffic saying they want to die.

We’ve got one guy that lives in my division that calls an average of once every 2.5 days or something like that for mental health help.

Any person who deals with this population can give examples never ending.

The mental health system in the US is worse than broken. It is very frustrating. We just do the best we can with the resources we have. Many officers have Crisis Intervention Team training, on top of whatever else they have. Even these officers (and fire/medic/dispatchers) can only do what the system allows them to do. Most of the patients they help get out within a few hours (or days in areas with less resources) and the cycle starts all over.

On night shift we usually get an emergency commitment order every night somewhere in my area. Unless we are in contact with someone that can explain the circumstances or there is an active danger with the subject, I generally wait until day shift to transfer the paperwork for service. I’m not a fan of creating a confrontation where one doesn’t have to be at 3am. Every situation is fluid and dangerous.

Chongo,

I have no argument with your genuine frustration with how the system doesn't work. I realize this places great burdens on you. I can't even imagine the circumstances you must deal with.

Please forgive the adversarial elements of my post. It wasn't meant for you, but for those that think a weapon is always the next option.

I just wanted to express how such situations make our LEOs look bad, is all. And I get it that some are under trained, underfunded, and under qualified to be in LE.

I also believe this to be a very tiny percentage of your workforce. I understand HR/Psych hiring practices for LEOs are quite strict. I would also guess those unqualified to be in LE are weeded out pretty quickly in their careers.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Chongo,

I have no argument with your genuine frustration with how the system doesn't work. I realize this places great burdens on you. I can't even imagine the circumstances you must deal with.

Please forgive the adversarial elements of my post. It wasn't meant for you, but for those that think a weapon is always the next option.

I just wanted to express how such situations make our LEOs look bad, is all. And I get it that some are under trained, underfunded, and under qualified to be in LE.

I also believe this to be a very tiny percentage of your workforce.

H&K-Guy

Thanks.

That percentage is probably higher in smaller departments though, like we’re reading about, that frequently pay less, have less money for training, and tend to sometimes hire officers that didn’t hack it elsewhere. Not always, but anybody in the business knows what I mean.

Remember the above article is basically just a press release by the family and their attorney.

Ok, here is a possible scenario.....as this same thing has happened several times in the last few years (several similar documented incidents in 2017 and 2018) I have made it part of my department's annual Taser re-certification: Person douses themselves with gasoline and holding a lighter or two. Cops arrive on scene and try talking person down or at least to drop the lighters. Person decides to try suicide by cop or wants to take out a cop or someone else as they are determined to die. Person runs toward officers while at the same time flicking their lighters. What do you do? Oh and btw, you can't back up faster than they can run. You have a pistol, Taser, and maybe pepper spray (not much of a deterrent since person is soaked with gasoline). Bean bag rounds are either deployed but don't stop the person (bean bag rounds have a really dismal record for stopping people) or are not available.

Sorry I am not going to let them grab onto me while they are flicking their bics or are on fire. That means shooting a firearm or using a Taser.

Like I said there is a lot of information missing from the article on the actions of the person.

In Henrico County, the police responded to a "welfare check" requested by a woman's counseling doctor. Two officer's lives were changed in that incident. The woman was known to be incapable of continuously rational thought, for many years. My concern for officers is that they are asked to investigate and intervene in situations solely in the purview of mental health professionals.

I support the idea that officers should not be dispatched to known mental health patients, absent a direct and immediate threat to the family or the public.

Once Johnny Four took a shower and flicked his Bic, any and everything Smokey the Bear would shake his head over, was in J4's hands.


It is all his to own.

If I were in a position, legally and authoritatively, I would tell the cop to walk it off and let it go.

Officer meant no malice.

Asshole who wanted to immolate got his wish.