Perhaps this may shed some light on LEOs and interactions with the mentally ill:
Shortly after being hired I was not allowed to be out on my own and was being trained by my shift sergeant. We received a complaint that a man was acting irrationally in a beauty salon.
We picked him up and drove him home to his parents house. During the trip, he made a number of threatening comments about other drivers in traffic.
The day before my last duty day before retirement, myself and another officer were sent to Krogers at about 3 AM on report that a naked man was destroying the shelved displays in the store. As we arrived, the man ran out of the store. We chased him on foot, tackled him and fought with him to get him cuffed. He had serious cuts on his feet from the broken glass he created as he knocked jars off the shelves in the store. We turned him over to EMS for involuntary psych eval. The store was out of luck as our court would not accept criminal charges on the mentally ill and the man had no money.
Whats the connection between the two incidents?
They both involved the same man. Twenty plus years apart.
And he was just one of mentally ill "frequent flyers" we dealt with.
I dont look for that situation to ever change.

Throw in the use of illegal drugs to the mix and it worsens. We had a 20 year old whose parents could/would not control him because of his schizophrenia mental illness and regular use of PCP. So they checked him into a local motel and paid his rent for 6 months.

He decided to rip out all of the plumbing fixtures in the motel room which caused a major flood of several rooms. He ripped up carpets, tore off drywall, broke windows, broke furniture, smeared urine and feces on the walls and generally terrorized the other tenants. The manager called the PD since the parents wanted nothing to do with it.

Six officers responded with the fire department. Four of the officers went through a glass arcadia door with the nut trying to restrain him. All went to the hospital. Drug scan revealed the presence of PCP. He was evaluated for 48 hours and released back to his prepaid motel room.

Three days later my female rookie and I were dispatched back to the motel. I had just received training in how to communicate with PCP users. My rookie was of no help when the nut dropped his pants and started to masturbate. I was able to handcuff him by myself. This time his parents decided to involuntarily hospitalize him rather than face paying for the damage to the motel.

Since discussion of a problem should include an attempt at a solution, I will take a stab at it:
And this is fantasy, since it will never happen.
1- Reestablish local, regional and state level mental hospitals. Fully fund them and oversee them to see that trained professionals care for the mentally ill. They need to be modern, safe and clean as well. Special emphasis should be in the treatment of our Veterans.
2- Set up "mental health" courts with specially trained judges, attorneys and other experts to ensure that the rights of mentally ill people are protected, while ensuring they get the care and treatment they need.
3- Modify our laws to allow mental heath courts to hold indefinitely those who are a risk to themselves and others, and if need be, involuntarily treat those who refuse their meds. The indefinite hold needs be reviewed by a mental health judge every 45 days to insure it is justified.
4- Every political jurisdiction needs to have a mobile unit (or units, depending on population size) with at least five specially trained mental health professionals on board for needed manpower. Two of these staff need to be fully trained EMTs. Specially equip these units for safe, secure transport of the mentally ill and stock them with medical supplies, restraints and other tools that give them the ability to take mentally ill people safely into custody.
4- Police are called to assist these mobile units only if a homicide or serious assault is in progress or has occurred and it was committed by a known mentally ill person.
5- Set up a victim assistance unit that addresses the crimes committed by mentally ill people and establish a reimbursement fund to offset damages caused by the mentally ill.
So... for this happen, we just have to pay for it all, find the people we need who want to do this kind of work 24/7/365 and pay them very well and modify our laws to enable it to happen.
I have seen the toll that mental illness takes on families and communities. Some type of solution is long overdue.
Oh... want to fund this?
Use the money we are currently spending on Foreign Aid to countries who either hate us or dont give a damn about us.

In the meantime could you arrange for Angelina Jolie to come over and give me a blowjob?

(Just funnin' wichya. I understand what you're saying. )

quote:

Since discussion of a problem should include an attempt at a solution, I will take a stab at it:
And this is fantasy, since it will never happen.

^^^^^^^^^^
The problem begins with funding of mental health at the state and federal level. I suggest you contact your State representatives and the folks in Congress.

Your points are well thought out. Pass them on. Thanks for taking the time to put those together.

In this case it was hand sanitizer.

https://www.timesunion.com/sta...-police-16595504.php

Catskill man burst into flames after police tasered him

Jason Jones, 29, is in critical condition in a Syracuse hospital burn unit

Nov. 5, 2021
Updated: Nov. 5, 2021 6:29 p.m.

CATSKILL — A 29-year-old Catskill man is in a Syracuse burn unit after he burst into flames when Catskill police officers used a Taser to subdue him after he had doused himself with hand sanitizer, police confirmed on Friday.

Jason Jones, a celebrated athlete at Catskill High School more than a decade ago, is in an intensive care unit at Upstate University Hospital in Syracuse. His condition is grave, according to people briefed on the matter.

The incident unfolded last weekend when Jones, who appeared intoxicated, walked into the village police department and got into a confrontation with officers. Chief Dave Darling, a former State Police senior investigator, confirmed that officers deployed a Taser to subdue Jones, who was familiar to them from past encounters.

"I think they were afraid he was going to hurt himself, and that’s what started it," Darling said. "There are still details that we’re trying to develop."

The chief described the incident as "horrible" and said it is under investigation by the Greene County district attorney's office. It's unclear when Jones poured hand sanitizer on himself, and if police saw him do it. Darling did not respond to follow-up questions.

A law enforcement source briefed on the investigation said that Jones had stripped off some his clothing in the police station and doused himself with hand sanitizer in front of officers before they tasered him. The chief declined to comment on that information.

Members of the Catskill village board of trustees also did not immediately respond to requests for comment on Friday afternoon.

Kevin A. Luibrand, an attorney for Jones' family, declined to discuss details of the matter. "We've requested preservation of all recordings and written materials and have no further comment," he said.

Darling said his officers are not equipped with body cameras, but there are video cameras in the police station.

In a letter to Darling dated Thursday, Luibrand requested that the department preserve all evidence in the case, including audio and video recordings from street cameras and other devices, as well as any computer data from any Tasers that were used during the encounter.

The Times Union published stories roughly 13 years ago highlighting Jones' standout athletic performances at Catskill High School, including on the track and basketball teams.

It depends on the situation:

1. Guy doused with flammable material in an open area, just standing there, then you have time to talk him down while getting other resources (bean bag gun, etc there).

2. Guy saying he is going to kill himself and you, starts running at you while flicking his Bics.....what are you going to do? I know personally, I am not going to be tackled or wrestle with a suicidal person who is on fire. So that leaves two choices taser (especially if it is already in hand) or firearm. Whats the best out of a bunch of bad choices?

I had a similar situation years ago: rolled up on stopped car in roadway, thinking disable vehicle. Walked up, smelled gasoline coming from car, still thinking disabled vehicle. Reach driver's window (down,tinted windows back and side so couldn't see into car until I got to driver's door). Driver sitting in seat doused in gasoline with extra gas cans open on passenger seat and rear passenger seat. Driver holding two Bic lighters in each hand. Also I knew this guy from a previous call where he tried to burn his penis and testicles off by heating up an oven, opening the door and then laying on it, severely burning the groin area. So I drew my pistol and told him if he tried to flick those bics, I would shoot him. I then backed up keeping him at pistol point, called for Fire and EMS. Once they arrived and staged, I called him out of the car, drop the bics and prone out on the road, which he did. Handcuffed and doused with water, clothes cut off and on his way to hospital and another mental health evaluation. Released less than 24 hours later.

quote:

Released less than 24 hours later.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Simply put the hospital and doctor would not be paid therefore he suddenly became not dangerous to himself or others.

quote:

PJ Hall has been like a father figure to Spencer Hall for much of his life.

And PJ has a history of mental illness, interesting family dynamics.

Many years ago when we first received OC, the spray was a solution of OC and alcohol. It was discovered that tasers on alcohol based OC ignited the suspect. Very effective in making them drop the weapon, but setting suspects on fire was not in the use of force continuum so the OC manufacturers quickly changed to a non flammable formula. Tasers and gasoline do not mix.

Johnny was a good kid who would not hurt a fly so says the family. Sounds like a good chance it was a case of suicide by cop. Victim started the ball rolling . But with out video w/audio who are we to say what actually happened. Feel sorry for the young officer involved as to what he will be put thru. And being from a small dept probably did not have or gotten adaquate training. .... But in this day in time there are those that look to take any interaction with the police to turn the public against any and all police actions and turn it into a major money making law suits...................................................... drill sgt.

These are just symptoms of a greater problem. Drug abuse and mental illness. Until we actually make steps, and I don’t mean symbolic “we re doing something” bull, families are going to continue to claim they are shocked about their family member (that history tells us they largely ignored) when something horrible happens.

The mental health system is broken. This constant focus on drug treatment is not working.

Change his legal name to Ronson!

"Light him up!" appears to have worked this time.

flashguy

I gave up immediately after "A Weed man set on fire..." Uh, yea ok, got it, outta here.

Apologies, I read the next sentence. A better headline could have been "A Grass man set on fire...". Actually makes more sense now that I think of it since Grass is a Superset of Weed, and would allow the imagination to fill in more blanks.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I think the police should stop responding to things of this nature to be blunt.

Agreed.

And I see what you did, there

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

Released less than 24 hours later.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Simply put the hospital and doctor would not be paid therefore he suddenly became not dangerous to himself or others.

Now a local hospital is releasing or kicking them out in as soon as an hour. Found out the Psych "Doctors" are doing mental evaluations via Zoom....no I am not kidding. The Hospital Charge Nurse told me off Body Worn Camera that the Hospital Upper Administration has said there will be NO acute psych patients in the hospital, even though they actually have a psych unit and psych ER Unit. They wanted us to arrest a guy who was obviously in a mental episode (talking about killing people), a ER Doctor gave us a "Fit For Confinement" form. This was in spite of the guy having "extremely" high levels of meth and fentanyl in his blood. I told the docotr and staff this wasn't worth the paper it was written on and we were taking him to another hospital. The doctor and staff got upset because they would look bad. The idiot doctor actually came in to make a complaint on me. The chief took one look at my Body Worn Camera video of the incident and unfounded the complaint right there in front of the doctor. The Chief then made a complaint on the doctor through our Community Mental health Liaison who sent it and the video to the State Board of Healing Arts. The doctor ended up getting censured. Another case they kicked a female out who was obviously having an episode because she refused to talk with the psych doctor. She ended up running down the street naked from the waist down (really not a pretty sight) shouting she was Tupac Shakar. One of my officers had to tackle her as she was running toward a bridge over a major highway so she could jump. We took her to another hospital where she was rapidly admitted. That hospital made a complaint on the other hospital which got hit with a hefty fine for failing to provide service and aid to a patient. The system is broken because people in the medical field only want to do Mental health Greyhound Treatments for the worst of the worst: buy them a one way bus ticket to somewhere else and make them someone else's problem.

FWIW:

All Basic trainees in my state get a minimum of 24 hours of Crisis Intervention training, which I am spooling up to teach this week, in the Basic Academy. It includes a panel discussion with mental health consumers and service providers.

I recently retired from a rural Sheriff's Office which was neither poverty-stricken or particularly well off. We had what we needed; nothing more nor nothing less.

95% of our troops were Crisis Intervention Team certified, which meant that they had an additional 40 hours in crisis intervention training.

We rolled a Narcan equipped unit on all ODs, on all shifts, and would usually beat EMS to the scene. Deputies would stand by to assist the medics if needed and collected any contraband that was legal to do so without a warrant - plain view, consent, etc. When available these calls were handled by Interdiction Unit detectives who could also follow up on sourcing where the drugs came from and the like.

Each (obviously non-fatal)OD was later followed up with by a detective teamed with a chemical abuse practitioner who went over treatment and recovery options with the victim. ODs were treated essentially as non-criminal in nature.

The local Hospital was staffed with a Mental Health Deputy who could assist with both the safety of staff during crisis situations, but who was also experienced in drafting the applications and affidavits need to do an emergency commitment to our regional state psychiatric hospital, in conjunction with the hospital medical staff.

IIRC correctly a nearby agency was among the first to ignite a guy with a TASER after hosing him with OC. He had also been huffing paint which probably contributed to his flammability.

The officer made a mistake, he didn’t consider that the TASER would ignite the flammable the guy drenched himself in. I hope the cop is doing ok, he was burned himself and I’m certain is depressed about the result of his action.