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California law bans small off-road gas engines, including lawnmowers and chainsaws Login/Join 
eh-TEE-oh-clez
Picture of Aeteocles
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quote:
Originally posted by LoboGunLeather:

Arguably, the use of battery-powered equipment that is recharged from the electrical grid actually results in greater emissions due to the energy losses incurred.


This point comes up in conversation a lot. Generally, this argument forgets things like economies of scale (one big generator plant is more efficient than lots of little ones), and that all non-renewable energy has transmission loss as well (fuel is spent trucking gasoline to a nearby gas station, and fuel is spent for you to drive there and get it). It also ignores that non-renewable fuel is used differently in a power plant than an at-home generator. Generally, a power plant uses the heat energy from the fuel to power turbines. A consumer sized generator is using internal combustion. Internal combustion captures the mechanical energy of a little bit of fuel going *poof* inside of a chamber, but the vast majority of the energy is spit out in the form of hot exhaust gas. Commercial power generation uses much more of that heat energy from the fuel burning. Even with transmission loss over lines, you are still ending up with more power from the fuel burned.

Ignore for a second all the other problems with electrified everything (i.e., ignore energy density and storage problems, ignore the need for heavy metals and rare earth elements, ignore our aging power grid, and etc and so on). IF you ignore all that other stuff, it's arguable that if you wanted to maximize the energy recovered from a unit of fossil fuel, then the most efficient way to do it would be to run that fuel through a big power plant and deliver that power over wires.

Yes, there are so many other problems with electrifying everything. BUT, the argument that the power still has to come from somewhere else is not one of them. It's simply more efficient to generate electricity elsewhere and transmit it over wires than for consumers to generate it at the point of use--otherwise, we'd all have natural gas piped to our homes and we'd all be running little generators for power.

Just for gut check: a Honda EU2200i will generate about 7kwh from a gallon of gas. 7kwh costs about $.74 cents to buy from your utility (nationwide average of 10.4 cents per kwh), but a gallon of gas costs about $3.27 on average. Electricity from the wall is more efficient and cheaper.

The problem we're dealing with here with regards to off-road gas engines isn't that battery powered equipment is less efficiency or generates more emissions. The problem is energy density and cost.
 
Posts: 12317 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Rightwire:
You could always do it with a scythe. Zero emission tool.
The solution is goats. Everyone needs to get a couple goats. Problem solved.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 32220 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The point is that stopping the dreaded evil CO2 is now the rallying cry for EVERYTHING. It's the gas implements now. Next it will be "you can't travel by air unless you are important enough with excellent social credit". Then it will be "you can't have a car, you have to live in the city and take public transportation".

I believe with a high degree of certainty that the reason the left had to get rid of Trump, from before he even took office until the last impeachment, was because he stood up to the global warming lie. He said it was a hoax made up by China, and you know he was probably not very far off because as the west commits economic suicide in the name of the environment, China will be laughing at our stupidity. Even if they didn't invent the idea of AGW, they are certainly using their vast propaganda machine to ensure we continue down this foolish path. This is the grand plan that the GDC's have been working on for decades - total control of the economy by dictating what energy we can use, all in the name of "saving the environment".

Anyway, I bought electric yard implements in 2015. 40 volt lithium ion Craftsman stuff (OEM Black & Decker). I hired out most of my lawn care years ago due to frequent travel and my gas trimmer was almost 20 years old and needed work (and I don't like the newer ones). I have the hedge trimmer, line trimmer, blower, and chainsaw. They are lighter duty but they work. The hedge trimmer is really worth it, cut too many damn cords with the plug-in kind. And even with very low use one of the batteries already died, seems they have issues with that and spares are stupid expensive.

For those that didn't know, California IS BANNING ON-HIGHWAY DIESEL ENGINES IN 2024. I am certain about the medium size ones, like 6 to 9 liter class. No more diesel pickups, buses, and anything else in this displacement range. Back to gasoline or forward to gaseous fuels. I need to check if the 11 liter and up heavy duty class is affected as much. It's not an outright ban, but NOx emissions levels that are impossible to meet.
 
Posts: 3295 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
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Something along these lines came immediately to my mind when I read the thread title.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ59:
So PG&E and Edison cut power when it’s windy. Utility crews go out to clear downed trees and limbs using e-chainsaws. Need to recharge? Can’t! No portable generator. The power is off.
 
Posts: 25039 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The solution is goats. Everyone needs to get a couple goats. Problem solved.


What about goat-fart and goat-belch? (or are they too lady-like to do those things?)
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: February 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This reminds me of the movie The Last Chase. California is driving this no gas issue yet in the future the will beg for gas to come back.



Let all Men know thee, but no man know thee thoroughly: Men freely ford that see the shallows.
Benjamin Franklin
 
Posts: 3542 | Location: Sparta, NJ USA | Registered: August 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
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Just for gut check: a Honda EU2200i will generate about 7kwh from a gallon of gas. 7kwh costs about $.74 cents to buy from your utility (nationwide average of 10.4 cents per kwh), but a gallon of gas costs about $3.27 on average. Electricity from the wall is more efficient and cheaper.

That's interesting. I did the math on our whole house generator and it converts natural gas to electricty for about $.12 per kWh. I wouldn't have figured a gasoline powered generator to cost 4 times as much.
 
Posts: 7236 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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***Breaking news!***


Electricity generation pollutes.

Not solving one thing here folks, other than making the Chinese rich with their lithium batteries and solar panels.





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 23210 | Location: Row 2F | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
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quote:
Originally posted by Southern Rebel:
quote:
The solution is goats. Everyone needs to get a couple goats. Problem solved.
What about goat-fart and goat-belch? (or are they too lady-like to do those things?)
Energy source. Use the methane for fuel.



Any cocktail can be a shrimp cocktail if you put your mind to it, and if you carry lots of loose shrimp in your pocket.

הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 25788 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No problem. The bed of my Tacoma has an outlet. I just leave the truck running while a run an extension cord to my tools. I actually did this recently. My mailbox is a brick 4 foot tall structure that’s pretty and has the mailbox inside it and I needed to drill masonry screws into it to add my house number. Mailbox is a solid 75 yards from front door so numbers on the house need to be huge. Street side it is. Parked truck half on my lawn and half on my little street plugged in my old makita ( too cheap to buy a nice battery dewalt/makita/Milwaukee drill) and left truck running while I drilled my 2 screw holes into the brick then mounted and screwed into the house number plaque. I’m sure gruesome would have a fit if he saw that
 
Posts: 3851 | Location: Florida Panhandle  | Registered: November 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
eh-TEE-oh-clez
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quote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:
***Breaking news!***


Electricity generation pollutes.

Not solving one thing here folks, other than making the Chinese rich with their lithium batteries and solar panels.


This is the weakest of the arguments against electrification.

Plenty of arguments to be made against electrification. Environmental harm from lithium mining. Increased reliance on an already strained power grid. Making the Chinese rich. Etc.

But not the pollution angle. Grid generation of power is absolutely cleaner than point of use generation of electricity or really any other point of use conversion of fuel to work.

Three things to consider as to why grid generation of power produces less pollution:

1) You convert more of the fuel's stored energy into useful power. An internal combustion engine (whether lawnmower or car) makes tiny explosions and tries to capture the mechanical energy of the gas expanding. Most of the energy in the fuel is then spit out the exhaust as expanded hot gas. At a power plant, fuel is burned and the heat is captured to turn turbines. More energy per unit of fuel is produced. Using rough numbers, more than 2x the energy is captured via power plant vs the most efficient internal combustion engine.

2) In the U.S., 40% of electricity is generated using natural gas. If you had a choice to generate a billion kwh of power using natural gas or gasoline, natural gas is the cleaner choice. It's cheap, abundant, and burns relatively cleanly.

3) In the U.S., some portion of grid power is generated using renewable sources--typically hydro power. Quick Google search says that 20% of electricity generation nationwide is currently renewable. That's not nothing. Another 20% is produced using nuclear power.

So, yeah. I'm happy to listen to both sides of the electrification dialogue. I'm pretty much neutral about the whole thing anyway--I've installed solar as a money decision, but I wouldn't go around mandating it for everyone. But, don't use the electricity generation causes pollution anyway argument. It's a weak position to take. Argue something else, like mining lithium shifts the pollution burden onto countries least likely to be able to absorb such damage--but generating electricity at the grid level is going to be cleaner than generating useful work from fossil fuels at the point of use.
 
Posts: 12317 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:
***Breaking news!***


Electricity generation pollutes.

Not solving one thing here folks, other than making the Chinese rich with their lithium batteries and solar panels.


This is the weakest of the arguments against electrification.

Plenty of arguments to be made against electrification. Environmental harm from lithium mining. Increased reliance on an already strained power grid. Making the Chinese rich. Etc.

But not the pollution angle. Grid generation of power is absolutely cleaner than point of use generation of electricity or really any other point of use conversion of fuel to work.

Three things to consider as to why grid generation of power produces less pollution:

1) You convert more of the fuel's stored energy into useful power. An internal combustion engine (whether lawnmower or car) makes tiny explosions and tries to capture the mechanical energy of the gas expanding. Most of the energy in the fuel is then spit out the exhaust as expanded hot gas. At a power plant, fuel is burned and the heat is captured to turn turbines. More energy per unit of fuel is produced. Using rough numbers, more than 2x the energy is captured via power plant vs the most efficient internal combustion engine.

2) In the U.S., 40% of electricity is generated using natural gas. If you had a choice to generate a billion kwh of power using natural gas or gasoline, natural gas is the cleaner choice. It's cheap, abundant, and burns relatively cleanly.

3) In the U.S., some portion of grid power is generated using renewable sources--typically hydro power. Quick Google search says that 20% of electricity generation nationwide is currently renewable. That's not nothing. Another 20% is produced using nuclear power.

So, yeah. I'm happy to listen to both sides of the electrification dialogue. I'm pretty much neutral about the whole thing anyway--I've installed solar as a money decision, but I wouldn't go around mandating it for everyone. But, don't use the electricity generation causes pollution anyway argument. It's a weak position to take. Argue something else, like mining lithium shifts the pollution burden onto countries least likely to be able to absorb such damage--but generating electricity at the grid level is going to be cleaner than generating useful work from fossil fuels at the point of use.


Ok lol … so silly but have at it. It’s still a free country for the moment





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 23210 | Location: Row 2F | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
eh-TEE-oh-clez
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quote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:


Ok lol … so silly but have at it. It’s still a free country for the moment


I'm just trying to be helpful. If we're going to sit around and call liberals stupid for mandating ridiculous rules, then we ought not to be caught making stupid mistakes in our arguments, right?
 
Posts: 12317 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will be interesting to see them dig out and clear the rubble after a 7+ magnitude earthquake without gas powered tools.


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Posts: 3646 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
aficionado
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quote:
Originally posted by scratchy:
It will be interesting to see them dig out and clear the rubble after a 7+ magnitude earthquake without gas powered tools.
I think it would be interesting even WITH gas-powered tools. . . . (Unnerving, but interesting)

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth
 
Posts: 25766 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
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Obviously California has not thought this through with its unintended consequences.

With no gas powered mowers, trimmers and leaf blowers, what are Juan, Jose and Jesus to do for work after they cross the border illegally?

And what is the next source of revenue to make up for all of the lost gas taxes?




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 11381 | Location: Eagle River, AK | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
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quote:
Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Obviously California has not thought this through with its unintended consequences.

With no gas powered mowers, trimmers and leaf blowers, what are Juan, Jose and Jesus to do for work after they cross the border illegally?

And what is the next source of revenue to make up for all of the lost gas taxes?
I'm sure they are espousing "mileage taxes" where every vehicle is charged for the miles driven.

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth
 
Posts: 25766 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
To all of you who are serving or have served our country, Thank You
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And what is the next source of revenue to make up for all of the lost gas taxes?


Nothing the Jamokes can't fix with a large increase in electricity taxes.
 
Posts: 2240 | Registered: March 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Seeker of Clarity
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Meanwhile, in China....

 
Posts: 10171 | Registered: August 02, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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California has rolling power outages now, due to fires, hot weather, etc. Imagine what it'll be like when everybody in CA gets home from work every day & they all plug in all their battery power tool chargers, their electric cars, crank up the air conditioner, and fires up their TVs & computers to get on Facebook & Twitter; all around the same time of day.


------------------------------------------------

"It's hard to imagine a more stupid or dangerous way of making decisions, than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."
Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 1246 | Location: PA | Registered: September 01, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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