quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
In any case, much of these complaints will be resolved in the next 10 years. Solid state batteries are coming, and they will hold more miles per charge and charge faster than anything we've seen yet.

And 'if' that indeed does come to fruition (I'm a bit skeptical but will play wait and see on it), that still leaves a huge gaping hole of how on earth we'd provide electricity to this new fleet of EV's given all the tree hugging BS impeding the production of electricity.

And your commentary about no vehicle bridging all needs is right on. However, most people try their darndest to find something that maximizes their usage given they don't have the budget to rent something else every time a need arises. I still think EV's have a lot of hurdles to overcome become they are accepted as mainstream by a majority of the population.

Surprised to see the emotional response to the rise of EVs. It's an interesting thing to observe as a gearhead and an electrical engineer.

I have daily driven a 2009 6-speed manual Tacoma since it was new. I have owned and autocrossed several different cars through the years. Last one was a 6-speed Camaro SS. New one is an ND2 MX-5 miaTUH. The new miata is the best sports car since the bugeye WRX.

I digress. I have my raw manuals still, and my wife traded her 4-runner in for a tesla y a couple months ago.

I encouraged her to go for the y because it meets our requirements for a family vehicle really well. Gigantic cargo room, easy ingress and egress with a baby seat, AWD, enhanced clearance for bad weather. Gigantic wheels actually enhance the driving dynamics, which are surprising. This thing is faster than the camaro was, at least here at high altitude. It's not surprising that it's packed with cameras and sophisticated software, what's surprising is that it's solid, smooth and crazy fast.

It's fun and practical.And an overnight charge from a normal 120 outlet gets you 40 miles. On a daily drive and charge routine like ours the car hovers around 200 miles reserve, which works just fine for what we do with it.

Im eying an S now. Sooooo fast. I don't give a shit about my carbon footprint, and that is why I will tell you EVs are winning.

You will buy a Tesla...

EV chargers are popping up everywhere. It won't be too long before you start seeing them pop up in the parking lots of smaller apartment buildings and curbside on residential streets in urban areas.

Once again, the enthusiasm overwhelms the reality.

It’s a second car. You can keep saying you don’t have a car that “does everything” till you are blue in the face. Driving down the coast with the wife and a couple suitcases strains the silliness of that argument. We aren’t talking a moving van or a flatbed. Simple transport from A to B beyond a couple hundred miles. You treat that like a trip to the moon.

Yes they are fast. Theoretically the maintenance is less. There are huge gaps in practicality. They can be managed but they probably won’t ever reach the convenience and practicality of ICE.

I wouldn’t touch an EV if I lived in hurricane country. Which I have. Done the 10 hour hurrevac and back. Extra gas cans and all. You have no answer to this. Or the long weekend trip. Or the lack of charging at the vrbo. Or or or.

It isn’t resistance to the idea. It’s resistance to the idea that all these problems are readily solvable near term or that they work for the majority.

This is a wealthy persons issue. I have 4 kids. None of them can afford to just have a spare car lying around. I can. Clearly you guys can. This is a rich persons issue. Dropping 40+ on a second car that can’t go on vacation. Nice to have these problems.

My biggest issue is that I truly think the EV crowd is pushing, cajoling society down the wrong path. This model fails on so many levels. Some version of a hybrid drive that covers the shortfalls of both systems is a better idea.

I believe the pushback on that idea is the environmental issues. EV is so clean. Except it’s not. On any level it’s a snake oil sales job when “clean energy” gets discussed.

Plug in hybrid that works for everyone in an identical way that it’s equivalent ICE version makes the most sense right now. Eventually some tech may supplant it all. Pushing this “weekend” car or rent a car for stuff model is silly. You sell me a Subaru right now that runs mainly on EV but has a gas motor for going long and I can also plug it in at night at home for the daily commute? Run to work and the store solely on electric but drive and refuel as long as my wife wants with a plug in at home? I would buy that car tomorrow. Tell me this all EV car works for “most” of my life? Screw that. I ain’t renting a car to drive to vacation, that’s just silly.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Run to work and the store solely on electric but drive and refuel as long as my wife wants with a plug in at home? I would buy that car tomorrow.

Dozens of Plug In Hybrid Exist for sale in the U.S. today that do exactly that. 15-30 miles pure electric, charged from your home, and a complete ICE that operates as a hybrid alongside the electric motor for unlimited range. You get modest torque boost from the electric motor, plus regenerative braking for added efficiency.

You can get something as nice as an a Porsche, BMW, Audi, Volvo, in either sedan or SUV/CUV format, or something as pedestrian as a Chrysler minivan and everything in between.

The Subaru Crosstrek comes in a plug-in electric hybrid. https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/crosstrek/hybrid.html

Or you can get a bigger Toyota Rav4 Prime. https://www.toyota.com/rav4prime/

Earlier this month, QuantumScape released test data on its solid state battery cells:

According to QuantumScape’s data, its cell can charge to 80 percent of capacity in 15 minutes, it retains more than 80 percent of its capacity after 800 charging cycles, it’s noncombustible, and it has a volumetric energy density of more than 1,000 watt-hours per liter at the cell level, which is nearly double the energy density of top-shelf commercial lithium-ion cells.

https://www.wired.com/story/qu...solid-state-battery/

Battery tech and wireless energy transmission, ala Tesla (Nikolai not the modern Bond villain) will RADICALLY change our world.

We are a long way off but on that road. Combine that with a realistic, efficient and cost effective use of natural renewables (solar, wind, wave, thermal etc) and you get a fairly radical change in our infrastructure and use.

Of course all of that is sci-fi at this point but I think we will get there. I also think there has to be a way to tap into the earths magnetic field for some positive effect.

One wonders what we could or would have accomplished if we were not so tribal and disparate as peoples. I know, I know Tower of Babel and all that.

I’m not as knowledgable as many people on this forum, but my main concerns with EV are:
We live in the country, snow can be a problem in the winter. Need a 4x4 many times, and it’s our preferred vehicle type. Not sure how well an EV could handle snow, and powering through snow covered roads.

Distance travel. One work day is at least 52 miles. If have to stop anywhere else, that adds to the distance needed so how well would that work before needing to be recharged? If getting low, would you get stuck to a crawl getting home?

What if I want to go to another city or state? Would I have to stop midway and recharge after an hour of travel?

Electric grid. If everybody is switching to EV, I don’t think the nations grid could handle it. Wasn’t CA already telling people not to run ac during certain times of the day? Suffering brownouts? As one example anyway.

Cost. We are getting close to retirement now. Even at our peak working days, we had to struggle at times.
We have never been fortunate enough to be able to afford high priced vehicles easily. Even a 40k vehicle is considered high to us. Just the way jobs in our area, life changes, circumstances all combined to have made us fight for everything we have now.
We can’t just go out and purchase a new vehicle every time. We are driving vehicles that are almost 20 yrs old now, keeping them maintained. At least they are paid off. We are doing ok, but we try to save for our retirement, so big expenses have to be considered, we don’t just jump and blow money on things.

Practicality is a huge factor for us, prob many others as well.
The EV would have to be affordable, in both purchase, maintenance and recharging, and able to handle long distances without loss of power, or breakdowns. Not to mention weather conditions.

Until they can get all this figured out and working, I’m not gonna even look at what’s currently out there. And not even mentioning the cost of manufacturing these batteries with current methods.

Jay Leno has been on Top Gear. So has a guy nicknamed "Seasick Steve". I can't find a good video if his interview, for some reason. However, he said that his process of picking up whatever car or truck he finds, driving it until it truly dies and then getting another is better for the environment than any of the electrics or hybrids. At the time I think he was driving a truck from the 1930s in an interview in the 1990s, iirc.

I had a thread earlier this year as I worked through an open review of my criteria for my next vehicle once it was apparent that my latest silverado was a piece of crap waiting to have another drive train catastrophe. My criteria, as flexible a platform for use as possible, it had to be a fun, enjoyable vehicle to drive - which excludes the new silverados which have no driver connection to the road at all. As a result, I have a great Tundra with a Diamondback cover over the bed and I love it, everything about it, except the gas mileage. It's a niggling annoyance to get the mileage that I get, but that is a criteria that falls behind the other two.

I too, should God forbid, something happens to my Tundra will next look at buying whatever old car or truck looks like fun, drive it until either it dies or proves itself to not be fun, and then move on to something else.

But, in recognition of what is in this thread, and the probable realities, when I remodel my garage/workshop area I will include a new electric service that will support a couple charging stations in the event that down the road the EV tech and experience meet my first 2 criteria. There's no present EV that I'm even half interested, and that includes the Tesla Robocop Truck Special.

I would be interested in the solid state battery tech listed above, and if it would resurrect the Jaguar Zero I posted a couple pages ago and significantly lower the price then I could start dreaming... Actually, if they can make the equipment as fool-proof and reliable as I hope it to be and bring the price on retrofitting down substantially then I could have a lot of fun with EVs.

I keep hearing that our EV has no range. Actually it will go 300 miles on a full charge, and Teslas know where most of the charging stations are, and it will map a route for you to keep the car topped off.

If you don't want an EV, I get it. But these arguments about range are laugable now. Elon has been busy making his cars relevant.

And it does great in the snow.

I'm not trying to sell Tesla's here, just offsetting some irrational bias and answering questions from those who are genuinely curious.

quote:

Originally posted by DoctorSolo:
I keep hearing that our EV has no range. Actually it will go 300 miles on a full charge, and Teslas know where most of the charging stations are, and it will map a route for you to keep the car topped off.

If you don't want an EV, I get it. But these arguments about range are laugable now. Elon has been busy making his cars relevant.

And it does great in the snow.

I'm not trying to sell Tesla's here, just offsetting some irrational bias and answering questions from those who are genuinely curious.

The older people get the more resistant to change they become and the more irrational their excuses become. Will EV work for every single person in every single situation they can come up with, no. For the vast majority of people it will work much better than they will admit. What will happen is as older people age out of it and younger people start with buying one for the household that they will quickly realize all the benefits of them and notice very few of these odd scenarios ever pop up for most. Eventually most households will have one and for many families it might become more than that. With all the money being poured into EV the best vehicles available will be EV so whether you like it or not that will be the wave of the future.

I wouldn't mind having one for the mundane tasks of everyday driving but for me ICE is irreplaceable as a performance car because of the sound and feel it gives back. I realize the actual performance on a piece of paper can be phenomenal with electric.

As kind of a tech geek I have been following brushless motors and electric power through both of my main hobbies and the pushback was the same with them in the beginning. All the older guys at the RC club said no way it will ever happen and now 15 years later electric dominates.

I also remember when the first electric motocross bikes came out and people where laughing at the owners stupidity. I just watched a video that showed a rider give a pro his electric dirt bike to try out and he couldn't believe how weird it was at first (you could hear him on the go pro as he lapped the track) and when he pulled in and handed it over his words were "this is the future".

Two very basic examples of electric power even in it's infant stages but 10 years from now once most people have actually experienced it in real life instead of going on preconceived notions the benefits will be recognized by most.

The situation is summed thusly in my mind.

EV is perfect for around town, daily driving and trips within the range of the battery with charging available on either end.

For high mileage trips, I just don’t see EV yet. I go to Montana several times a year and take other similar trips through the year. 10 minutes at a gas pump and I’m back on the road. When will that be true of EVs?

Well..... I'm currently in the process of jumping onboard with an EV. Home charger gets installed Sunday, car getting delivered and dropped of at the house supposedly on Tuesday

Buying a Tesla has been the easiest vehicle transaction I've ever done

will it take care of all my needs, nope. But I hope once the Cybertruck or the like is released they will. I still have boats to haul so my need of an ICE is still there. But on that note, I have a 67 mustang sitting for fun also.

what will its purpose be... Its going to be a work car, I travel between 2-3000 miles a month. The thought os decreasing my fuel costs to $0.08 a kilowatt was too tempting.

will I regret this decision, only time will tell. I'm looking forward to trying out new technology in the driving experience. Why not. I kind of look at it as there are still diehard 2stroke outboard enthusiasts who trash 4 stroke motors and laughed at them as too heavy etc when they started to become popular. now all you see are 4stroke motors for their efficiency (yes, I understand there are EPA aspects involved also)

I'm very excited for this transition and embracing the needed behavioral changes involved

The Tesla will plot out where the charging stations are. Or, your ICE will stop pretty much anywhere to fuel up. And in 5 minutes or less. You guys can preach the wonder all you want. Maybe it is the future (I doubt this is the model of the future but we shall see) but for almost everyone who doesn’t want to plan their trip around fueling stations I will gladly let you early adopters pave the way. I have never taken a trip and planned out a fuel stop unless I was in an airplane.

Second car. Commuting. Around town. Wealthier people. Not hurricane country. Not snow country (nothing to do with traction wiseacre).

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
The Tesla will plot out where the charging stations are. Or, your ICE will stop pretty much anywhere to fuel up. And in 5 minutes or less. You guys can preach the wonder all you want. Maybe it is the future (I doubt this is the model of the future but we shall see) but for almost everyone who doesn’t want to plan their trip around fueling stations I will gladly let you early adopters pave the way. I have never taken a trip and planned out a fuel stop unless I was in an airplane.

Second car. Commuting. Around town. Wealthier people. Not hurricane country. Not snow country (nothing to do with traction wiseacre).

One doesn’t have to use a Tesla station. There are multiple other companies who are installing them. Charge point has 68,000 plugs currently nation wide, most level 2, once level 3 chargers are widely available, that will make a huge difference . They are the largest. Hell, any RV park with a 240 plug will charge the car

A learning curve absolutely. I’m no fanboy at this point. But who knows what will happen

On the road, what is the cost of a tank of electricity?

One real plus is you can't water down electricity.

I want a 2021 Ford Bronco with Prius front wheel drive system, street tires shift on the column , dual fuel filler tubes,
Back up cam recorder, dash cam recorder,
Four wheel disc brakes
Suburu crash avoidance tech,
Tilt wheel, cruise control

quote:

Originally posted by DoctorSolo:. . . You will buy a Tesla...

Well, no I won't.

I lived in Silicon Valley for close to 40 years, watched Tesla grow up. One of my neighbors was a lead engineer at Tesla. Without gov't (taxpayer) subsidies, the cost to purchase and operate a Tesla would be overly expensive.

And my bet is, with the gov't involvement in the electricity industry, and the gov'ts skill at screwing things up, there will be growing problems.

(A bit of a smile, we lived in Alabama for 18 mos, doing volunteer work for students at the UofA, then went back to our home in Silicon Valley. I saw more Teslas doing a half mile walk around the block in Silicon Valley than I saw the entire time in Alabama.)

Really the main point I don’t like about EV is the government trying to force feed it to us. When the technology can compete on its own merit then fantastic. I don’t think tax payer subsidies should be done what so ever.

With that said why does petroleum still get massive subsidies.

Let free markets decide either way and most likely you will see a nice mix of both.

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
Really the main point I don’t like about EV is the government trying to force feed it to us. When the technology can compete on its own merit then fantastic. I don’t think tax payer subsidies should be done what so ever.

With that said why does petroleum still get massive subsidies.

Let free markets decide either way and most likely you will see a nice mix of both.

Makes sense. I would like to see, ala "geographic economics", where petroleum firms get massive subsidies vs where they pay massive taxes (seems to me CA is in the latter category).