quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
Really the main point I don’t like about EV is the government trying to force feed it to us. When the technology can compete on its own merit then fantastic. I don’t think tax payer subsidies should be done what so ever.

With that said why does petroleum still get massive subsidies.

Let free markets decide either way and most likely you will see a nice mix of both.

I'm not opposed to a free market, in theory. But, in practice, two problems emerge: 1) government regulations already exist and inhibit anything we'd call a free market; 2) our market does not exist in a vacuum, and other countries subsidize their key industries as a sort of economic warfare.

An upstart technology fights an uphill battle due to existing government regulations. How is a new car maker supposed to get started with the thousands of rules and regulations (everything from auto safety standards to workplace standards) that already give existing manufacturers an incumbent advantage?

Like it or not, Tesla represents the U.S. in the global battle for the next generation of manufactured goods. If Tesla doesn't succeed, that void will certainly be filled by a heavily subsidize Chinese entrant (Nio, Xping)

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
Really the main point I don’t like about EV is the government trying to force feed it to us. When the technology can compete on its own merit then fantastic. I don’t think tax payer subsidies should be done what so ever.

With that said why does petroleum still get massive subsidies.

Let free markets decide either way and most likely you will see a nice mix of both.

I'm not opposed to a free market, in theory. But, in practice, two problems emerge: 1) government regulations already exist and inhibit anything we'd call a free market; 2) our market does not exist in a vacuum, and other countries subsidize their key industries as a sort of economic warfare.

An upstart technology fights an uphill battle due to existing government regulations. How is a new car maker supposed to get started with the thousands of rules and regulations (everything from auto safety standards to workplace standards) that already give existing manufacturers an incumbent advantage?

Like it or not, Tesla represents the U.S. in the global battle for the next generation of manufactured goods. If Tesla doesn't succeed, that void will certainly be filled by a heavily subsidize Chinese entrant (Nio, Xping)

I was having a lengthy discussion with my brother (Columbia and Haas mba’s). He has been deep thinking about the country’s who subsidize the renewables wondering why so much. What he found is in most of those country’s they own the power grids and control them. They can’t control the petroleum company’s for the most part and aren’t directly making vast profits from them. So they push the renewable narrative in order to maximize their profit away from big oil. In the guise of saving the planet

He’s waiting on his Rivian SUV to be built he preordered

quote:

Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

quote:

Originally posted by snwghst:
...What he found is in most of those country’s they own the power grids and control them. They can’t control the petroleum company’s for the most part and aren’t directly making vast profits from them. So they push the renewable narrative in order to maximize their profit away from big oil. In the guise of saving the planet
...

If the left has their way they will have us all buying that foreign non-renewable energy. Why do you think Biden and crew are all making deals with foreign energy providers. Once they ramp up enough restrictions domestically we'll have no other choice. Then they'll be collecting their slice of the pie.

I might suggest $$ is only one motive. If the gov't controls the sources of energy, then they control the people. I believe the push for socialized medicine fits the same principle, the motivation is more to control the people than to take care of the needy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:. . . I'm not opposed to a free market, in theory. But, in practice, two problems emerge: 1) government regulations already exist and inhibit anything we'd call a free market; 2) our market does not exist in a vacuum, and other countries subsidize their key industries as a sort of economic warfare.

An upstart technology fights an uphill battle due to existing government regulations. How is a new car maker supposed to get started with the thousands of rules and regulations (everything from auto safety standards to workplace standards) that already give existing manufacturers an incumbent advantage?

Like it or not, Tesla represents the U.S. in the global battle for the next generation of manufactured goods. If Tesla doesn't succeed, that void will certainly be filled by a heavily subsidize Chinese entrant (Nio, Xping)

Seems to me a upstart tech firm gets off the ground because they offer some product or service that is better than the competition (or not available from the competition); or is the same as the competition but costs less.

Consistent with my comment above, the problem with gov't subsidies is that the gov't gains too much power and control of the economy, which power and control the gov't uses to serve themselves and their cronies first, the masses get the leftovers.

Edited to add: I just got an email from Silicon Valley Clean Energy, pushing sales of electric cars, as "buying an electric car is the most important thing I can do to save the planet".

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

Seems to me a upstart tech firm gets off the ground because they offer some product or service that is better than the competition (or not available from the competition); or is the same as the competition but costs less.

But those tech firms aren't competing in highly regulated industries where regulations give the incumbents an advantage. A programmer can start a tech company in his garage. No car manufacturer can do that. It costs millions of dollars just to engineer and test for crash worthiness. So yeah, I'm all for a free market. But the market isn't free, incumbents already have an advantage (prior crash testing knowledge from years of having to deal with regulations). Without subsidization to get early adoption, what you get are ultra expensive exotics without widespread adoption (Maclaren).

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:. . . Without subsidization to get early adoption, what you get are ultra expensive exotics without widespread adoption (Maclaren).

And with more subsidization, you get more gov't control of the economy (or the industry). Gov't controlled economies (or industries) are never efficient, nor do they meet the needs of the general populace. They serve themselves and their cronies first, the masses get the leftovers. But the masses foot the bill.

I know a fella with a 2013 Prius ,
it has 87,000 miles on it ,
He is pleased as all get out with it, except for oil changes, Its never had any mechanical work done to it .

He did research on the car and its recalls battery life and maintenance , as he was considering getting another one.

three different shops told him that the only batteries that they have had to replace , had 190 ,000 miles on them .

I heard a guy invented a set of batteries the size of a pair of double A's that can power a car an average 80 MPH from New York to LA on a single charge, but the government and battery companies paid the guy off and are keeping the technology from consumers.

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
...."buying an electric car is the most important thing I can do to save the planet".

I only had someone offer up that retarded and arrogant BS to me one time, after which I so exploded on them with a rebuttal they needed psychiatric counselling. It truly tells you all you need to know about mankind when an entity so unimportant in the grand scheme of things thinks it can "save the planet". The planet, assuming it could, would laugh in our faces at the very thought that we control anything of that magnitude on this rock. Soon we (the human race) will go the way of thousands of other species as we disappear from the makeup of this planet. And interestingly, millions of years down the road, the planet will still be rotating, still revolving, and still functioning just fine without us.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I heard a guy invented a set of batteries the size of a pair of double A's that can power a car an average 80 MPH from New York to LA on a single charge, but the government and battery companies paid the guy off and are keeping the technology from consumers.

Think of the global disruption and chaos that would occur 'if' someone truly came up with that silver bullet renewable energy source. The entire world economy sits atop petroleum. What would happen if all of a sudden, petroleum products were no longer needed to power transportation, or power generation. There isn't a single economy/country on the planet that would embrace that renewable energy option knowing the financial/economic damage it would reek.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
...."buying an electric car is the most important thing I can do to save the planet".

I only had someone offer up that retarded and arrogant BS to me one time, after which I so exploded on them with a rebuttal they needed psychiatric counselling. It truly tells you all you need to know about mankind when an entity so unimportant in the grand scheme of things thinks it can "save the planet". The planet, assuming it could, would laugh in our faces at the very thought that we control anything of that magnitude on this rock. Soon we (the human race) will go the way of thousands of other species as we disappear from the makeup of this planet. And interestingly, millions of years down the road, the planet will still be rotating, still revolving, and still functioning just fine without us.

I have suggested that those who staunchly believe in the carbon footprint demise of planet earth should do their part to solve the problem. They should promise to immediately no longer emit CO2 or CH4. No one has taken my suggestion.

But, bidgeal, if the human race does soon disappear, it will be your and my fault for not buying electric cars.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I heard a guy invented a set of batteries the size of a pair of double A's that can power a car an average 80 MPH from New York to LA on a single charge, but the government and battery companies paid the guy off and are keeping the technology from consumers.

Yeah he was the same guy who invented the 100mpg carburetors in the 70's. That guy must be getting rich by now.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I heard a guy invented a set of batteries the size of a pair of double A's that can power a car an average 80 MPH from New York to LA on a single charge, but the government and battery companies paid the guy off and are keeping the technology from consumers.

Think of the global disruption and chaos that would occur 'if' someone truly came up with that silver bullet renewable energy source. The entire world economy sits atop petroleum. What would happen if all of a sudden, petroleum products were no longer needed to power transportation, or power generation. There isn't a single economy/country on the planet that would embrace that renewable energy option knowing the financial/economic damage it would reek.

Who is John Galt?

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I heard a guy invented a set of batteries the size of a pair of double A's that can power a car an average 80 MPH from New York to LA on a single charge, but the government and battery companies paid the guy off and are keeping the technology from consumers.

Yeah he was the same guy who invented the 100mpg carburetors in the 70's. That guy must be getting rich by now.

Tom Ogle died at the age of 26 in 1981. Smokey Yunick died 77 in 2001, but his Fiero only got 51mpg.

Back in the 1990s some people were adverse to the idea of having a cordless phone.

"It's too big. It's too heavy. They cost 2-5x as much as a corded phone. I don't like the battery life. The sound quality isn't the same. I can't talk on the phone and use my microwave without getting interference."

How long did it take before nearly every home had at least 1 cordless phone?

When cell phones first came out they were big, bulky and expensive to use. In the late 90s I got one and it was $30/month for 100 minutes and something like $0.50 per minute when I went over. Fast forward 10 years and most cell phone plans included unlimited nationwide calling and eliminated the need for a home phone line.

"But what about faxing? I can't fax with a cell phone so cell phones suck!"

That's what some of you sound like in this thread. Listen, if you need to fax then keep your home phone line and fax. I kept a home phone line for years just in case if I needed to fax something and guess what... I was paying over $500 a year for that line and I sent/received maybe 1 fax a year. I did the math and cancelled the line. If I need a document and they won't email it encrypted (very rare) I tell them to overnight it to me and I'll pay the $25-35 fee. I'm still ahead $450+ every year. Are we going to overlook all the other advantages cell phones have over home phone lines because cell phones can't fax?

That's how I see EVs. The last time I took a trip over 400 miles was so many years ago I can't even remember where I went. The longest trips I take now are to go skiing and is about 200 miles round trip. Every day I drive about 100 miles and park my car at my home every night.

I have three vehicles and on average it costs $35-50 to fill up a tank that gets ~300 miles. An EV would cost about $15 to fully recharge a battery. If I put a solar system on my roof the cost would drop even more. Once the system is paid off the cost of sunlight would be all it takes to recharge the battery. The first vehicle that dies is getting replaced with an EV.

I will say that while EVs have great performance there's nothing like the sound of an engine when driving spirited. I heard somewhere that 50% of the driving experience is the sound the car makes and I couldn't imagine driving my sports car without hearing the symphony of the engine, turbos and exhaust.