Maybe I'm unusual but I have ZERO interest in EV's.

I'd like an EV truck equivalent to my current RAM...but range and recharge times have me skeptical. Not to mention I doubt anything truly comparable will be on the market for quite a while.

Balze Halze - there are quite a few successful developments like that.

And, most of the very expensive areas in the country are that way - places that no one “has” to live.

“Walkabilty” has become a major factor.

quote:

Originally posted by Georgeair:
Jay’s car. He’s right!
Maybe some of you can chill looking at it too.

THAT is awsome. Jay and his cars a a great American asset.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Diesel electric hybrids are pretty well the gold standard for efficiency. I suspect that will be true for pickups, etc as electric drivetrain costs come down.

I suppose fuel cells would be a better option, especially NG ones, but I think those top out at 5KW these days.

(If were more effective to store energy as a charge than as a hydrocarbon, life would work that way.)

I do think, if we can solve the violence issues, there may be far fewer private cars.

I THINK most folks would prefer to live in something akin to townhouses, with transport in some kind of bicycle with a weather protected roadway, etc.

Cities seem to do their best to fight it*, but folks seem to buy into areas like that, by preference. It’s more efficient, especially with the advent of delivery services, etc.

(One of my friend, retired Wall St analyst, lives in such an area. He has a small “city car”, and just rents larger ones, when he drives long distances.)

*Not sure why they fight affluent townhouses so much. Maybe it’s local to my jurisdiction. Perhaps it’s an artifact of their taxing structure.

So, by what name are they calling LSD these days ?

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

“Walkabilty” has become a major factor.

Yeah. If you have a lot of New York City transplants in your area. Sure.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Good read. Also wrong on so many levels. To add to what the guy said about everywhere not being California, everyone isn’t rich either. Most people can’t afford and shouldn’t have two separate cars for work, commute and then everything else. Your car has to do it all for most people. A car that is just for commuting and then a weekend car makes ZERO sense. It costs more and it’s worse for the environment. It’s literally a money loser in every way.

As for electric cars having no repairs. He said that. What a load of shit. Ever try to track down an electrical problem in your car. Your car that isn’t electric? You still have car problems with electric cars. The modern ICE is pretty darn reliable. I will give the edge to electrics bit with the caveat that the6 will have issues that confound you.

We keep stepping past the infrastructure like it’s an easily solved problem. It’s not. Energy infrastructure from power plants to actual charging stations will require a huge influx of money, effort, and time.

You still haven’t solved the quick charge issue. It is an issue even if you want to ignore it or pretend like the solution is right around the corner.

Once again, you need a Volt or hybrid system to make this really work. All electric isn’t practical. It just isn’t. And yes, Tesla owners are like a cult. Talk to them, try to get them to even admit yo any issues. It’s like walking through downtown Jonestown right before koolaid hour.

Reality needs to be injected into these discussions.

I think if you read Leno's article more critically, he's not saying that everybody is going to have two cars, he's saying that eventually, fossil fueled cars will be weekend toys. I don't think he's wrong. You look at the way the technology of batteries and charging is advancing and it's hard not to see the electric as a car you can take trips in. I suspect that once we hit 500 miles, that will be about it.

As far as the repairs go, I think the data is starting to get there on the Teslas to show how much lower cost of ownership can be. You figure that everything that has moving parts or leaks on your internal combustion car is pretty well eliminated, brakes wear at a fraction of the rate because of regenerative braking, etc. The system is more complicated to engineer, probably, but easier to diagnose and likely much more modular.

The biggest issue on Tesla is their supply chain and monopolization on the parts market. Body work on Teslas is atrocious because you need a Tesla certified shop that can buy the (expensive) parts and then to wait for Tesla to deliver them. The way the cars are designed is a factor, too. Dented rear quarter panel? Good luck pulling the panel with breaking the top glass. Stuff like that. These are ultimately Tesla problems, not EV problems.

And I don't necessarily like it any more than a lot of you, but historically, it doesn't usually pan out to claim that something automotive technology related like this that has taken such a foothold so far "is never going to happen" as a mainstream, thing. People have been saying that since the horse started to be threatened as a means of personal transport and they've been wrong every single time.

quote:

And, most of the very expensive areas in the country are that way - places that no one “has” to live.

“Walkabilty” has become a major factor.

We used to live in the prototype place like that, called Village Homes in Davis CA. The concept was great, the execution OK; the problem was it attracted all the Leftist ecofreaks and they made life hell for any conservative who lived there.

Regarding batteries and rare earth minerals: I'm with Leno, the engineers will save the world--by developing battery technology that doesn't require such vast amounts of rare earths.

There is a simple solution for California, it's called nuclear power. Lots of power, no significant environmental warming--but those who think they believe in "science" plug their ears when any one brings up that easy solution.

We have a startup in Montana that is working on the next generation battery the lead developer claims could one day power an aircraft coast to coast. It's a start.

Another example of EV technology outpacing ICE.

We're all familiar with the gokarts at the miniature golf place, right? Those 6HP Honda motors did a good job etc. Well, a few months ago I went to an indoor gokart place that use EV gokarts.

Holy crap, the acceleration, handling and braking were sooooo aggressive that I actually ached a bit afterward.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
Another example of EV technology outpacing ICE.

We're all familiar with the gokarts at the miniature golf place, right? Those 6HP Honda motors did a good job etc. Well, a few months ago I went to an indoor gokart place that use EV gokarts.

Holy crap, the acceleration, handling and braking were sooooo aggressive that I actually ached a bit afterward.

Yep, perfect use for current EV tech...to power toys.

You are saying that when people go to Costco to fill up,

There will be 12 electric plugs and three gas pumps?

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
You are saying that when people go to Costco to fill up,

There will be 12 electric plugs and three gas pumps?

For the vast majority of drive situations, an EV car will never need to charge in public. Charge at home, start the day with a full charge, and you will only "need" to go get a charge at a public station a few times a year.

I like roadtrips as much as the next person, but I can count on one hand the number of times a year where my daily range exceeded 350-500 miles.

As a two-car household, I'd be interested in owning an electric car. The performance-to-dollar ratio, simplicity of maintenance, and time savings of not stopping for gas is attractive. Having a second non-electric car in the household would make me feel better about roadtrips and camping trips.

If you only had one car, an EV could still work out if you were able to rent a non-electric car for the times you needed to take a longer drive. Again, most people would be able to count on one hand the number of times a year where they drive more than 350-500 miles at one go.

In any case, battery tech is catching up fast. Solid state batteries (Quantum Scape just did a proof of concept) will pack some very impressive energy densities with extremely fast charge rates. I think if you got to the point where you can get 80% charge in 15 minutes, people's "range anxiety" will pretty much disappear.

Which EVs have a 350-500 mile range and what do they cost?

Can they carry 5 people and a 65lb dog, while towing a PWC or 16' aluminum boat?

What kind of range do they have running the A/C in the Florida sun?

Call me the guy who says cars will never be faster than horses or they will explode guy.

You guys are drunk on technology. It’s cool. It’s fun. You also ignore every argument that doesn’t fit your elation. So to summarize, strip the world of rare earth elements for batteries. Nope, some newer better battery is just around the corner. Limited range. Nope, I can count on one hand how often I travel that far, one hand. Excessive charging times. Nope, we will all charge at home no matter what. Energy consumption. Nope, it uses the same as your oven. That I assume you all use 7 days a week for 10 hours at a time. No infrastructure. Nope, didn’t you hear we have “weekend” cars. Doesn’t matter because we all want to live under covered roadways and ride our bike to work or some stupid shit like that. Hell I can’t even answer that one. Fuck.

quote:

Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:
If Toyota and a few others are right, solid state batteries will be changing the EV industry sooner than we expect. Range and recharging that's going to be on par with gas in a model year or two.

Link about Toyota tech:https://asia.nikkei.com/Busine...route-for-2021-debut

That claim has been made over and over again throughout the last decade or two. When it actually becomes viable, then its worth discussing. But the issue will then move to how to generate the needed electricity to power these cars. That answer won't be as easy to resolve.

I mentioned in an earlier post that a local company was working on a new type of battery. They made the same claims about life cycle and quick recharging.
They said this is just around the corner - 15 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Which EVs have a 350-500 mile range and what do they cost?

Can they carry 5 people and a 65lb dog, while towing a PWC or 16' aluminum boat?

What kind of range do they have running the A/C in the Florida sun?

The Rivian SUV checks off all those boxes (400+ mile range, 11,000 lb tow capacity), and the Tesla Model Y comes close (325 mile range, 3500lb tow capacity), but that's not the point of my post.

The point of my post is that for most people, for most of the time, an EV is perfectly suitable. It even has some advantages (instant torque, fewer moving parts, start every day with a full "tank").

Obviously, anyone can point out the outlier use cases or some particular capability that a particular car didn't have. Sure, fine, an EV doesn't work for you. But that doesn't change the fact that it should work for most people, most of the time. It probably works for the 5 passenger+dog+boat owner most of the time, if he was willing to admit it to himself.

I'm no stranger to overbuying based on my outlier use case. I have exactly zero things to tow, but of course my SUV has a tow hitch, "just in case". But, now that I have my over-capable SUV to handle all of the "just in case", I certainly won't begrudge an EV a second look, because on paper it has some advantages for the day to day driving that I actually encounter.

The very basic problem with your logic is that you are conflating zombie apocalypse stuff with “some of the time stuff”. Owning 250 Pmags loaded up with 855 just in case is silly fantasy stuff. Deciding to take the wife to the Outer Banks for the long weekend isn’t. What do you do? Plan an extra couple hours for charging and waiting to charge on the drive? Hope there is a handy place to plug in at the vrbo so that the car “is charged every morning when I get up”?

These aren’t once in a lifetime events. The EV works for a commuting car and driving to the grocery store. If you don’t want a second car, which destroys a large part of this whole silly argument, how do you handle this? Rent a rice burner for the week?

I want and need my car to cover all the bases. Camping, commuting, groceries, trips to Florida, all the above. If I own a car that works for 95% of my life, what the hell do i do for the other 5%? That isn’t overbuying.

So again, this car fills a very nice niche as a SECOND car, no more no less. If you only have one car, the EV isn’t a very solid choice. Unless you live next to your covered walkways and only drive in town. Which is literally no one I know and certainly not me or anyone in my family.

The enthusiasm bypasses the actual issues. It’s a second car choice. Just like a Jeep Wrangler, albeit for different reasons.

No single car covers all of the bases for everyone.

I don't own a pickup truck. Or a moving van. Or a Jeep. Or a Sports Car. Or a minivan. When I need to haul a couple yards of mulch, I rent a pickup truck. When me and five of my adult friends want to take a roadtrip, I rent a minivan.

Some people honestly need a pickup truck all the time. Some people don't really.

Again, for most people, for *most of the time*, an EV fills the use profile better than most other cars (and by "better" I mean a more responsive driving experience, better efficiency, fewer moving parts, and a full "tank" each day).

If you are taking a 600 mile road trip 20 times a year, then yeah, maybe the inconvenience of renting each time would outweigh the benefits. Maybe even 5 times a year. I don't know what the threshold is for every single person--heck some people won't even fly once a year because of the inconvenience. So yeah, buying a car that excels at the 95%, and renting the other 5% actually makes a lot of sense--for some people, it makes more sense than buying a car that does 99% of what they need with some tradeoff somewhere.

I'm just saying, if one were to objectively look at their car ownership experience--*most* people would benefit *most* of the time from an EV. Not *everyone*. Not *all the time*. But most.

In any case, much of these complaints will be resolved in the next 10 years. Solid state batteries are coming, and they will hold more miles per charge and charge faster than anything we've seen yet.