quote:

Originally posted by Browndrake:
The very title of this thread disappoints me.

All I can tell you is that I don't need other people to tell me how I should feel, or to validate my opinions. I would never create a thread like this, and I am surprised that the OP is- according to his signature- an:

"NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Endowment Member
VCDL Member
FFL Dealer"

Does not compute. Just does not compute.

The militarization of civilian law enforcement was a catastrophically bad idea, and one that had significant unintended consequences. Even assuming that military equipment is required on our streets (it isn't), the escalation of violence inherent in the use of military hardware, and the inevitable conversion of civilian law enforcement into a quasi-military force endangers the very people who are to be protected.

The mindset of a soldier is of necessity very different than that of a police officer, and for very good reasons. The soldier is trained to use his skills and tools with maximum violence, because the goal is simple...kill people and break things. And that is as it should be. But civilian law enforcement has a much different goal; "Protect And Serve" isn't just a throwaway slogan.

When civilians are authorized by government to use force to enforce government's rules, they must be held to the highest possible standard. And that standard must preclude the cavalier use of deadly force unless clearly required. The social compact does not not value the life of a police officer over the lives of the citizens he is sworn to protect, but the mantra has become exactly that.

The penalty for resisting arrest should not be death. If that means a few cops get a few bruises, then so be it. They serve us, and they are the tip of the spear of government coercion, and must be carefully controlled. As conservatives we bristle at every expansion of government power, and the poorly controlled use of deadly force by civilian law enforcement is the most egregious expansion of that power.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/387419.php

Militarization of Police

The responses of many jurisdictions following the incidents in Ferguson are illustrative of other problems with the militarization of police: infringements upon federalism and a lack of oversight by the people law enforcement is sworn to serve and protect. For example, to secure equipment through the 1033 program, law enforcement agencies send applications directly to state coordinators in each jurisdiction. This allows local law enforcement agencies to acquire the military equipment, purchased with federal tax dollars, without any appropriate oversight by state lawmakers or local city officials. The current structure of the 1033 program allows law enforcement agencies to circumvent the traditional principles of federalism and avoid the appropriations process meant to protect citizens from excessive government spending.

https://www.charleskochinstitu...arization-of-police/

let's see I've actually met
100,000 people and only 35 of them have tried
to bend me over in a bad way.
and
of the 50 cops that I have met in person
only one 2 were hot head, over anxious, head cases.

People in general, weather the are cops, delivery people, farmers or librarians.
they are going to have a bad day or three.

learn from others mistakes

There is a national narrative by __________ (fill in group name) of the ever present racism in America. This is a narrative that just wont die. No one wants to talk about 'reality' of less than 5% of all slaves came to America, most went to the Bahamas and South America etc. No one cares we were one of the first to ban the importation of slaves, fought a civil war over the expansion of slavery and distribution of powers. And that we have legal laws that make ALL man and ALL women equal. nope.

Dont interfere with my national narrative. As such we have rampant racism and prejudice. Peace doesnt make anyone money, so F that, lets just take the occasional situation and blow it the F up. Now we have riots (hooray for my hit count) and more narrative about racism in America. All this BLM and crap is just made up outrage.

As such, Murder is murder - I do not know why the cop(s) did what they did. It sure looks like they acted horribly and killed the guy. They were fired, and I think arrested, I do not know if they have been charged. But I believe in the justice system, I have too. If it is broken, we fix it. no system is without sin.

But would someone show me the statistic for the same day of PD serving and protecting, nationwide? Oh I am sorry that doesnt fit the narrative. lets bury it, and paint with a real wide brush.

"you cant stop the signal mal, cant stop the signal"

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
of the 50 cops that I have met in person
only one 2 were hot head, over anxious, head cases.

But those one or two have considerably greater power than the average person to destroy lives. Those one or two have to be weeded out through selection, training, and re-evaluation, and all cops have to be held to a higher standard than the general public because they wield the police power of the state - including the power of life and death.

Unfortunately, it is just not enough for MOST cops to be good people.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Browndrake:
The very title of this thread disappoints me.

All I can tell you is that I don't need other people to tell me how I should feel, or to validate my opinions. I would never create a thread like this, and I am surprised that the OP is- according to his signature- an:

"NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Endowment Member
VCDL Member
FFL Dealer"

Does not compute. Just does not compute.

Those are all true, very true. I am a red blooded American patriot, and a tremendous supporter of LE. Always have been.

This is exactly why I find myself struggling with the concerns I am having. I truly was wondering if Im wrong, or if Im not alone.

There have been multiple events, all previously listed. They have troubled me greatly.

Not intending to disappoint anyone, or cause discourse. I check this site daily multiple times a day and have for years. I don't post a lot, but have grown to respect many of the folks who do. I suppose, that is why I asked the question I did. I believe many of us are of similar opinions and was curious of others thoughts.

Either way, I do appreciate the replies.

Then, you should already understand that police officers are absolutely necessary functionaries of any civilized society. The police aren't going away.

Law enforcement has been hobbled by the people in this country who do hate the police. This is why you see video of police officers saying "DROP THE KNIFE!!!!" sixty-two times before they shoot the nutcase advancing on them. It's ridiculous, and all of us know why it has come to this.

You say you support law enforcement. Well, you can do so by separating the wheat from the chaff, and recognizing that the police won't always get it right. All this stuff about how you should feel- that's up to you, but the police are here to stay, so...

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

Militarization of Police

The responses of many jurisdictions following the incidents in Ferguson are illustrative of other problems with the militarization of police: infringements upon federalism and a lack of oversight by the people law enforcement is sworn to serve and protect. For example, to secure equipment through the 1033 program, law enforcement agencies send applications directly to state coordinators in each jurisdiction. This allows local law enforcement agencies to acquire the military equipment, purchased with federal tax dollars, without any appropriate oversight by state lawmakers or local city officials. The current structure of the 1033 program allows law enforcement agencies to circumvent the traditional principles of federalism and avoid the appropriations process meant to protect citizens from excessive government spending.

https://www.charleskochinstitu...arization-of-police/

The Charles Koch Institute is Libertarian affiliated and has partnered with the ACLU in the past. I am not surprised by their view of law enforcement.

In regard to police "militarization", I would argue that LEOs who undergo "militarized" training are better trained, more professional, and less likely to overuse force.

One other item for me, personally... Our Governor here in Va. is absolutely off the rails. He has been pushing quite the agenda, and has been full tilt since November.

In my dealings with my Sherriff, he has always been reasonable, and NOT in any way partisan. He is a democrat, and when I spoke to him about the proposed laws, he suggested I speak with Republican folks as he was democrat and supported Northam.... He changed his tune somewhat, but suggested that regardless of his feelings, he would enforce the laws, as that was his duty. His explanation, whether constitutional or not, that was for courts to decide, he would enforce whatever came down the pike.

With the virus, and a member being arrested for being at the gym... It was shocking to me.

It is increasingly an us vs them feeling, and I don't like it! Not about tickets, not about doing something wrong and being punished, it is about freedoms being trashed.

I appreciate LE chiming in and saying they have leeway, but, as citizens, we have to hope we get one that is feeling generous that day?

Maybe I have been naïve, I follow the rules, do what I am supposed to, etc, never had concern. But now, parties change, rules change, and suddenly I am in the wrong?

Does that make more sense?

The "militarization" argument against law enforcement goes all the way back to the 1990s and it became null and void on the morning of September 11, 2001.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The "militarization" argument against law enforcement goes all the way back to the 1990s and it became null and void on the morning of September 11, 2001.

Agreed.

There was an article posted yesterday that law enforcement arrested an ISIS-sympathizer for allegedly planning a mass shooting at one of my favorite places to fish on the beach. I've been there MANY times. The bottom line is that there are people hell-bent on committing evil acts, and law enforcement needs the means to bring them to justice.

quote:

Originally posted by Maestro:


There was an article posted yesterday that law enforcement arrested an ISIS-sympathizer for allegedly planning a mass shooting at one of my favorite places to fish on the beach. I've been there MANY times. The bottom line is that there are people hell-bent on committing evil acts, and law enforcement needs the means to bring them to justice.

Holy Cow! I don't want to divert this discussion, but please post a link to that article, maybe in a new thread.

quote:

There was an article posted yesterday that law enforcement arrested an ISIS-sympathizer for allegedly planning a mass shooting at one of my favorite places to fish on the beach. I've been there MANY times. The bottom line is that there are people hell-bent on committing evil acts, and law enforcement needs the means to bring them to justice.

Tampa man scouted Honeymoon Island for terrorist attack in support of ISIS, DOJ says

TAMPA, Fla. (WFLA) – The United States Department of Justice announced the filing of a criminal complaint against a Tampa man accused of trying to provide material support or resources to the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS).

According to the complaint, Muhammed Momtaz Al-Azhari, 23, was an ISIS supporter who planned and attempted to carry out an attack on behalf of the organization.

Al-Azhari has a criminal history that includes prior terrorism charges in Saudi Arabia, the DOJ says.

The complaint said Al-Azhari attempted to purchase multiple guns over the course of the investigation and acquired a Glock pistol and a silencer.

Al-Azhari also allegedly expressed admiration for Pulse nightclub shooter Omar Mateen and spoke of his desire to carry out a similar mass shooting.

Al-Azhari allegedly researched and scouted potential targets in the Tampa area, including Honeymoon Island.

https://www.wfla.com/news/brea...rt-of-isis-doj-says/

What the public perceives is that the "good cops" will not actively weed out the bad actors, instead they circle the wagons and double down on the blue line.

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
The police and the state have been given wayyyy to much power over our lives. That in my mind is the problem.

We only have the power granted us by the legislative branch and approved by the judiciary, many of whom you had a vote in electing.

Talk to me when you become "Adultcop" and maybe you'll see how silly you sound.
You have control of what your government does? Yes I vote and I ALWAYS vote for smaller government.

quote:

Originally posted by alingo2001:
Here's an idea. Don't do stupid things that get you involved with the police. This is in reference to the Minneapolis incident. I don't go robbing people or using drugs so at most, I might have a traffic citation.

Well, there is a jurisdiction down in south west Virginia that has been known to write phony traffic tickets because the fines went to support LEO activities.

Another jurisdiction down south, wrote lots of phony tickets because all the revenue went to support local government.

My brother was a cop. He retired as the head of the Idaho State police. I have a lot of respect for LEOs. Having said that, there are a few bad apples in that barrel and they need to be removed.

quote:

Originally posted by medic15al:
What the public perceives is that the "good cops" will not actively weed out the bad actors, instead they circle the wagons and double down on the blue line.

Law enforcement is not the only profession with this sense of unbreakable fraternity, but it is certainly most conspicuous in that field. There's no doubt about this. The only question is the matter of degree.

Still, we do see police officers go to jail for their actions, so the thin blue line can shield bad cops only so much.

Regarding the militarization of the police- I'm certain no one remembers, and those posts are long gone, but before September 11th, I was one of the voices on this board decrying the militarization of law enforcement. Before our world changed on that day, I saw no reason for non-Federal law enforcement agencies to be riding around in Bearcats, uniformed in the most tactical of tactical outfits. I thought it was silly and I thought it was a dangerous trend. But now, even if 9/11 had never occurred, just look at our society. We have more dangerous radicals than you can shake a stick at. We have so many people in this nation who just want to tear down all of it.

quote:

Originally posted by medic15al:
What the public perceives is that the "good cops" will not actively weed out the bad actors, instead they circle the wagons and double down on the blue line.

Agreed but it goes much deeper. It is just not LEO's working the local beat. The corruption extends throughout government at all levels and functions. Most politician and government employees no longer think or act at all as if they are our servants. Rather a huge number think they are our masters and intend to rule - one way or another. Fear and force are the preferred tools of many in their ranks.

quote:

Regarding the militarization of the police- I'm certain no one remembers, and those posts are long gone, but before September 11th, I was one of the voices on this board decrying the militarization of law enforcement. Before our world changed on that day, I saw no reason for non-Federal law enforcement agencies to be riding around in Bearcats, uniformed in the most tactical of tactical outfits. I thought it was silly and I thought it was a dangerous trend. But now, even if 9/11 had never occurred, just look at our society. We have more dangerous radicals than you can shake a stick at. We have so many people in this nation who just want to tear down all of it.

All of that may be true... and I don't disagree.
However, even if we have more dangerous radicals than ever before, I think it's still a dangerous trend.

The police should inspire confidence and trust in the average citizen on the street and I think all of this tactical gear and military MRAPs and such distance the citizen from the police and create an us/them perception. The dangerous trend is a loss of community trust.

I don't want to poke this inferno any worse, but spend some time in uniform. Deal with the policies, general orders, elected officials, city attorney's, IA, SIU, etc, etc, etc. Oh and the public, because the only time we come in contact them is when they're breaking the law.