when the police carry an AR style rifle, its called a patrol rifle

when I carry exactly the same things its called an assault rifle

Waco and Ruby Ridge stick to my mind as to when law enforcement became 'less than friendly', the acquisition of MRAPs and removing light bars for more low profile lighting

I don't see a lot of cruisers around any more with 'To Serve and Protect' written on them

again its all appearance to us, mindset to them

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
when the police carry an AR style rifle, its called a patrol rifle

when I carry exactly the same things its called an assault rifle

I've always been angered by this too.

I have anger towards the people who use race and the police to further their political agenda.

Personally I don't recall any serious race issues since 2016- The last Presidential Election cycle.

This thread is actually full of irony. A group who pleads after a mass shooting that they shouldn't be lumped in with a handful of knuckle heads who do wrong.......lump in another group together because a handful of knuckle heads do wrong.

Lamenting and insisting that cops be "more friendly" and go back to the "good old days of policing" ignore a lot of factors. I love the accusations that Chongo was making a straw man argument. That was priceless. How 'bout this? You want cops to go back to "Olde timey" policing, you get society to go back to "olde timey" rules. You know the ones I'm talking about. Where people didn't call the cops because their six year old was "out of control" because they threw a tantrum and won't get on the school bus. Where people actually made their car payments, and didn't threaten the repo man with a machete because they feel entitled to keep the car through "their" negotiations with the bank. Where the mentally ill were actually locked up in institutions, and not roaming the street waiting for you to call the police on them at the first sign of trouble. And then you look away in disgust when things go bad with the interaction because there are no other options but to arrest because the system isn't equipped to handle the problem that would be solved with going back to institutions.

And the list goes on.

Many of you don't seem to grasp the fundamental problem that policing has changed because society (you) has changed. Until society changes back to days gone by, the police can not change back. And ladies and gents, that horse has left the barn. Chongo is EXACTLY right about the head cracking of the days gone by. That tune up was natures way of saying "I wouldn't do that shit if I were you". And it worked. Because society had basic rules that were largely followed. All the guys who are claiming "I remember when I was a kid....." were also the same ones that didn't go do dirt because they were afraid of the consequences due to how they were raised. That is gone. Now, people view committing felonies during the commission of doing whatever the hell they want to do as "meh, I'll just get it expunged". The mindset is totally different.

The police are a cross section of your society, and if your local police really suck, it's a reflection of your community as a whole. You can dress it up, and make excuses, but at the end of the day, that is the reason. There's a reason why recruitment is down. There's a reason why retention in the first five years is down. There's a reason why my generation will be able to work the job until we are 100.

I make no excuses for the bad. But, until personal responsibility comes back into favor, we ain't going back to days gone by. You can be angry. You can not trust the police. You can even shake your fist at the internet. But, at the end of the day, blaming the cops for what is going on is like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound. Taking an aspirin for cancer. It is merely blaming the result of a symptom of societal decay.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

This is the marrow. And now we see how one man's immorality affects the rest of society.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: darthfuster, May 28, 2020 10:26 PM

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
This thread is actually full of irony. A group who pleads after a mass shooting that they shouldn't be lumped in with a handful of knuckle heads who do wrong.......lump in another group together because a handful of knuckle heads do wrong.

Who has done this? Who here "lumps in another group together because a handful of knuckle heads do wrong"? Who holds anyone responsible but those who do wrong?
NO ONE has argued that.

quote:

Lamenting and insisting that cops be "more friendly" and go back to the "good old days of policing" ignore a lot of factors. I love the accusations that Chongo was making a straw man argument. That was priceless.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

No one here argued for "beating people upside the head with lead saps without recourse, coercing confessions without lawyers, blowing up city blocks, shooting fleeing suspects in the back, wearing Sam Brownes...etc."

Chongo argued against an argument that was not made by anyone.

The only “Good Old Days of Policing” argument was for more inter-personal contact, on a peaceful basis, between police and citizens.

quote:

The police are a cross section of your society, and if your local police really suck, it's a reflection of your community as a whole. You can dress it up, and make excuses, but at the end of the day, that is the reason. There's a reason why recruitment is down. There's a reason why retention in the first five years is down. There's a reason why my generation will be able to work the job until we are 100.

I can't disagree with that. Recruitment and retention are down inversely proportional to the decriminalization of crime by Democrat politicians. After what was done to Darren Wilson in the "hands up, don't shoot" blood libel, one would have to be insane or desperate these days to want to become a cop.

quote:

I make no excuses for the bad. But, until personal responsibility comes back into favor, we ain't going back to days gone by. You can be angry. You can not trust the police. You can even shake your fist at the internet. But, at the end of the day, blaming the cops for what is going on is like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound. Taking an aspirin for cancer. It is merely blaming the result of a symptom of societal decay.

Again, I ask: Who is blaming the cops for what is going on? I haven't seen a single post in this thread "blaming the cops for what is going on".

I'm not angry towards the police. I have friends who are good police officers. I know that many here on SIGforum are good police officers. You are doing a tough job and most of you do it with honor and respect for the citizens you 'serve and protect'.

darthfuster, do you have to quote an entire block of text that's right above your post? Really, there was no need to quote it at all.

There are some people reading this thread on small devices and repeating an entire block of text like that unnecessarily is an impediment. Have mercy on them, huh? And have mercy on me as well.

Chillem,

If you are not directly blaming the police for the trends in LE, who are you blaming?

Society is the reason for the change in law enforcement. But, "protect and serve" was only a slogan on a police car, even back in the day. If you are questioning faith in LE, which is the topic at hand of this thread, it is driven by events that have nothing to do with you or I. The person that you keep asking "who is doing this"....well, it's you.

I personally would love to go back to the days gone by. It's just not going to happen. Cops aren't perfect. They never were. I'm not.

Sorry I was posting from a small device which makes it difficult to edit. I'll edit it from my desktop.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Chellim,
If you are not directly blaming the police for the trends in LE, who are you blaming?

I'm neither directly or indirectly blaming the police for what is going on in society.

quote:

Society is the reason for the change in law enforcement.

Yes, and the changes in society are very complex and I comment on them every day... but it's too much to summarize in this single post.

quote:

But, "protect and serve" was only a slogan on a police car, even back in the day.

Do you not hold yourself to this standard?

quote:

If you are questioning faith in LE, which is the topic at hand of this thread, it is driven by events that have nothing to do with you or I. The person that you keep asking "who is doing this"....well, it's you.

I am not questioning my own faith in LE and I'm not angry towards the police. Most police officers are trying to do a job, which can be stressful, and as I said above most of you do it with honor and respect for the citizens you 'serve and protect'.
Of course, when you talk about 'trends in LE' you are talking about the effects of political decisions made by people with whom you and I both probably disagree but we have to live with.

Finally, I believe you have taken on an unnecessarily defensive and combative tone. I don't think we really disagree on much, except maybe you want an MRAP and I don't think it's necessary...
Goodnight!

jljones very eloquently explained my point.

It wasn't a straw-man argument. It was that we (society) left the good old days of policing in the dust, and they weren't really that good.


Most police departments across the country are not staffed in a way to be able to maintain interpersonal contacts. They would probably need three times the officers working to do that. Most departments are short, and the officers are running call to call to call, and often never completely clearing out the queue before they go home, which is usually late.

I was fortunate that once-upon-a-time I worked for one agency that had a lot of cops on the street. I actually did foot patrols, I knew people on my beat, I knew shop owners (still maintain friendship with some of them), I knew the bad guys, their moms, their grandmas. When I worked as a public housing officer there I knew the vast majority of the residents and spoke with them frequently, attended meetings, gave presentations, etc. So it's not as if I don't understand what you're talking about. I've lived it.

But the vast majority of officers today, due to departments being short and populations surging, don't have time for any of that. They have violent calls holding and don't have time to take a meal break or go for a walk. My agency is at the same staffing level as 2008. 12 years ago. Our city's population has soared. Think about that. And most agencies are very similar, especially medium to large cities. Watch the Flint documentary, for an example. Or do some googling. There are departments that don't even have time to respond to calls that aren't in-progress, or don't do accident reports if no one is injured, etc.

Sure, most departments say they engage in "community policing", and have a handful of officers that go out and play basketball, etc. But that's a drop in the bucket. Not even a drop in the bucket. When the average officer runs calls non-stop, the average citizen deals with a stressed, tired, overwhelmed officer just trying to get the report done so he can get to the next call. Usually with less than 3 years of patrol experience. And as someone posted the other day, usually without even any formal field training to begin with, and often times with a minimal understanding of the job, since they spend all their time taking reports and extra training is hard to come by in a lot of areas. And when a beat officer is trying to take his time and interact with people not related to calls for service, which is what we should want, his peers are having to take up his slack--and angry citizens are having to wait even longer for the response to their 911 call.

I don't like it anymore than you. Less than you, probably. My job is to keep those officers motivated and doing the right thing, and to investigate when they screw up. But I'll give them credit that despite all the above, they try hard and overwhelmingly do do the right thing. I get more positive feedback from citizens than negative on my officers, and when reviewing the negative (thanks to body cameras), it is very rare that the person complaining has a leg to stand on.

I don't have much else to say on the subject. We do the best we can with what we have. When officers screw up we expect a fair and thorough investigation, just as we would do before jumping to any conclusion, and decisions based on facts.

And the media is usually full of shit pushing their own agenda, on this or any other subject.

quote:

We do the best we can with what we have. When officers screw up we expect a fair and thorough investigation, just as we would do before jumping to any conclusion, and decisions based on facts.

Good! The citizens deserve your best.
Full agreement. Officers deserve to be treated fairly when accused. I was here when Officer Wilson was wrongly accused. I know the (former) Prosecuting Attorney who laid out the results of the investigation. Both paid an unfair price due to the false accusation: "Hands up, don't shoot!"

And, yes, the media is usually full of shit pushing their own agenda...

I’d like to go back to the days when bad guys actually went to prison. Or even jail. The days when possessing meth, heroin and cocaine was a felony rather than a “non-bookable misdemeanor.

I get out of my car when I can, but my beat is 400 square miles, has about 40,000 people, and it’s me and my partner. Usually.

Cities like Oakland, Richmond and Vallejo are a hundred times worse, with in-progress felonies pending for entire shifts, or multiple shifts, because of the backlog and lack of cops to respond


https://www.mercurynews.com/20...tempted-cop-killing-

Having someone try to assassinate you while you drink a cup of coffee would make even Andy and Barney hypervigilant and less approachable.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
when the police carry an AR style rifle, its called a patrol rifle

when I carry exactly the same things its called an assault rifle

I've always been angered by this too.

We patrol with the rifle. Its a rifle issued to a patrol officer. My agency calls our 870 patrol shotguns. You can call your own weapons what ever you want. Sporting rifle is the term I hear most often by people who worry about silly things like names.

No, I’m not here to “protect and serve”. That is a lefty slogan from the 60s that never has described LE. Some people believe it is. I’m paid to investigate criminal activity and be an advocate for my victims/society.

^^^

I have a "thin blue line" across the back of my truck rear window, with the words "SUPPORT AND RESPECT".

It is an equal message to both sides of that line.

I understand the mission of citizen who is sworn LE, and I understand the duty of the citizen that has entrusted LE.


I'll not buy into the narrative of anyone with a selfish/manipulative agenda.

Watching film of Minn. this morning. More burning and looting. The animals there are no better than that damn cop.

quote:

The only “Good Old Days of Policing” argument was for more inter-personal contact, on a peaceful basis, between police and citizens.

And on what empirical evidence do you base the claim that it was EVER like this? I started in the mid 80's, when cop characters had names like "Bumper" for a reason. People who think that beat cop was twirling a nightstick because it looked cool are sorely mistaken.

The wished for "good old days" of policing included things like no training, hiring guys (and any women would be called matrons and forced to wear a skirt), no oversight and none of the hallmarks of professionalism, with a few pioneers like Peel and much later Vollmer, who largely fought uphill battles.

Why do you suppose it is that many of the landmark USSC decisions governing police conduct came out during the "good old days?"

There are folks whom I would love to meet, my wife gives me grief because they aren't real. I disagree, when you see folks writing, for years, you get a real feeling of who they are, and who you respect.

jljones is one of those folks for me. Have always, genuinely appreciated his input. There are many others.

My title has a question mark. It does because I am concerned about a genuine frustration, mistrust, anger for LE as a whole, NOT individually. Bad events happen, perhaps more than we know, but I hope, justice is served regardless of the perpetrator.

My concern is the belief that if I fly right, keep my nose clean, I will have no issues.

Many things lately have me believing that is not true anymore.

Partisan politics, changes in administration, literal overnight law change, orders, directives, etc. Can turn me into a criminal, after a lifetime of not being one.

I hear LE say, " we have leeway in what we do" well great, if you are my master and I am your slave. BUT, that should not be the case.

The pendulum has swung too far.

LE has too much power, and I see liberties being trampled on.

Don't care if more or less than past, I see them NOW.

What is answer? I don't know. Maybe LE Unions need to stand up. Maybe?

Either way, I am frustrated to see folks arrested for going to the gym. I am frustrated when law abiding citizens in VA can be criminals with a vote, and LE is all too happy to enforce.

Are these feelings? Yeah.

Perhaps some folks have never been cut off in traffic, so they don't understand that anger is a feeling.

Hope this helps clarify my concerns a bit more.

quote:

I am frustrated when law abiding citizens in VA can be criminals with a vote, and LE is all too happy to enforce.

The legislative problems here in VA are not driven by the police, and a whole lot of police in the state indicated they would not be interested in enforcing the crap that was proposed.

I cringe when I see the video. Yet, each time I see it, I am reminded how they show the police walking him around and the next shot is a knee on him. WHY are they skipping the part in-between? HOW did it get to that point? WHY are they not showing that part of the video? With all the video coming out, somebody captured that. I cannot imagine the end result is justified, but the elite liberal media is most definitely hiding key parts of the video. Be more skeptical and wait for the full story. Don't buy into their agenda. Don't be a sucker!