quote:

Originally posted by mark_a:
PayPal is the devil. It took 1 transaction about 15 years ago to figure that out.

If I am doing an online transaction and it ends up at a PayPal portal I cancel the transaction.

I just don't understand why people still use them.

Because it’s convenient

quote:

Originally posted by mark_a:
I just don't understand why people still use them.

Because it mostly works for most people most of the time.

But, with the OP's story, I'll certainly endeavour to use PP less than I have in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by mark_a:
I just don't understand why people still use them.

Because it mostly works for most people most of the time.

Like gas station sushi.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Your post doesn't give enough information to decide whether they did or did not. I understand that you believe they did, but - as is always true - there are almost always two sides to a commercial dispute.

I side with GallowayPrecision. The things he's claiming are no surprise at all. When it comes to seeing PayPal for what they are, I was a trailblazer. I was warning people off of them as long as 17 years ago, and each time I hear about PayPal, my position on their business practices is always confirmed. Paypal doesn't give a shit about their customers. It's even worse than indifference, though. They seem to despise the people who keep them in business.

very true words,


and I agree, but l also use them as a necessary evil on ebay,

our 3rd account was locked 6 months ago, so I created anohter, (it may last a couple years)

I keep no money in it, we transfer funds weekly, sometimes more, to a savings account


we only use them for ebay, and you would be surprised by the number of customers that will only pay by paypal (we gave several options when out account was closed)


one account was closed when paypal said they did not like out website,

after paypal sent a note a year earlier and asked to be on out website as a payment option,,,


ebay is switching to a new payment system, and we will drop paypal like a stone as soon as they do


which reminds me, I need to check to see if I can withdraw the balance from out last account now,,

I pick up special release beers for a couple of friends that live way down in SW VA and they keep after me to get a PayPal account so they can send funds that way. I told them no way in hell. Check or COD, I don’t fuck with the PP commie pricks.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by mark_a:
I just don't understand why people still use them.

Because it mostly works for most people most of the time.

Like gas station sushi.

Ok. That was funny.

^^^^
The problem is much larger that just a Paypal Problem
The Media Cartel which PayPal is a part of is the most powerful entity on the planet.

We all must listen.

Galloway Precision needs to be supported.

"Social Score" use the search function here for previous postings about it.

I should have book marked it, I think it was here on SigForum, but may be somewhere else, about a week ago about the government will not do, but private companies will rate our social scores and decided what we can do and not do, and especially what is happening in China.

Brandon, thanks for posting that video. I watched it its entirety and I urge forum members to do the same. You are correct all the way- PayPal's actions in seizing your money is criminal behavior, despite their air-tight, novel-length contract with details buried in it, so that these specifics can be discovered only by reading through several hundred pages. Despite the "Well, you signed it" response from any lawyer you might ask about your legal recourse, the fact is that virtually no one reads through all of that stuff, and PayPal knows it and that's why they pull this crap, and even if you had done so, PayPal refuses to tell you which specific terms you violated. This despicable behavior isn't an effort by PayPal to adhere strictly to the terms of the contract. This is about a business entity deciding to punish businesses and individuals who exercise their Second Amendment rights.

Additionally, based upon your recommendation, I registered on firearmsfriendly.com. If this becomes a viable marketplace for gun owners, I'll be directing forum members to that site on a regular basis. In order for it to take off, people need to be aware of that site and they need to register.

SIGforum supports Galloway Precision in their efforts to make American gun owners aware of PayPal's actions, as well as their efforts to redirect gun owners to a firearms-friendly marketplace.

Please convey to Don at Traction Grips that he is welcome to join SIGforum, and both Galloway and Traction Grips are most welcome to use the Classifieds section of SIGforum. I realize that this is a mere drop in the bucket, but you can sell your wares here if you wish. I couldn't find a contact email address for Don and I am not a member of Facebook, so, please let him know.

Watch the video, guys. Traction Grips sells grip appliques, that's all. But PayPal has seen fit to freeze their account for some unspecified violation. This is absolutely preposterous. Stop doing business with the America-hating slugs at PayPal.

Not long ago it was reported the ACLU (American Criminal Liberties Union) filed suit against NY and the governor on behalf of the NRA. It had to do with the NRA insurance programs. I found it surprising that the ACLU would have anything to do with the NRA, but what the anti 2nd Amendment attacks must have been egregious enough to get their interest.

But wouldn't it be nice if the ACLU did the same against paypal.

Found the article...

https://www.guns.com/news/2018...uit-against-new-york

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Brandon, thanks for posting that video. I watched it its entirety and I urge forum members to do the same. You are correct all the way- PayPal's actions in seizing your money is criminal behavior, despite their air-tight, novel-length contract with details buried in it, so that these specifics can be discovered only by reading through several hundred pages. Despite the "Well, you signed it" response from any lawyer you might ask about your legal recourse, the fact is that virtually no one reads through all of that stuff, and PayPal knows it and that's why they pull this crap, and even if you had done so, PayPal refuses to tell you which specific terms you violated. This despicable behavior isn't an effort by PayPal to adhere strictly to the terms of the contract. This is about a business entity deciding to punish businesses and individuals who exercise their Second Amendment rights.

Additionally, based upon your recommendation, I registered on firearmsfriendly.com. If this becomes a viable marketplace for gun owners, I'll be directing forum members to that site on a regular basis. In order for it to take off, people need to be aware of that site and they need to register.

SIGforum supports Galloway Precision in their efforts to make American gun owners aware of PayPal's actions, as well as their efforts to redirect gun owners to a firearms-friendly marketplace.

Please convey to Don at Traction Grips that he is welcome to join SIGforum, and both Galloway and Traction Grips are most welcome to use the Classifieds section of SIGforum. I realize that this is a mere drop in the bucket, but you can sell your wares here if you wish. I couldn't find a contact email address for Don and I am not a member of Facebook, so, please let him know.

Watch the video, guys. Traction Grips sells grip appliques, that's all. But PayPal has seen fit to freeze their account for some unspecified violation. This is absolutely preposterous. Stop doing business with the America-hating slugs at PayPal.

Thank you we appreciate that, I'll pass the word on to Don over at Traction Grips.

That is absolutely infuriating

Here is how this stinking business operates.

You open an account on eBay [not PayPal] as a buyer or seller. In this case, it doesn’t matter what type of account, the way this works applies to both.

Among the many things you agree to is compliance with eBay’s policies, among which is not violating eBay’s Prohibited and Restricted Items policy.

Here is the list of prohibited and restricted items, each of which you need to read the details of by opening the hyperlinked page at the eBay website [these are not hyperlinked]:

- Adult items policy
- Alcohol policy
- Animals and wildlife products policy
- Selling art policy
- Artifacts, cultural heritage, and grave-related items policy
- Autographed items policy
- Catalytic converter and test pipes policy
- Used clothing policy
- Credit and debit cards policy
- Digitally delivered goods policy
- Drugs and drug paraphernalia policy
- Electrical and electronic equipment policy
- Embargoed goods and prohibited countries policy
- Encouraging illegal activity policy
- Firearms, weapons and knives policy
- Food policy
- Gift cards policy
- Government, transit, and shipping-related items policy
- Government documents, IDs and licences policy
- Hazardous, restricted, or regulated materials policy
- Human remains and body parts policy
- Lock picking devices policy
- Chance listings policy
- Mailing lists and personal information policy
- Coupons policy
- Medical drugs, devices, and healthcare policy
- Personal relationships and services policy
- Police-related items policy
- Real estate policy
- Product safety policy
- Event ticket policy
- Slot machines policy
- Stamps, currency and coins policy
- Stocks and other securities policy
- Stolen property policy
- Travel policy
- Used cosmetics policy

We are interested in the Firearms, weapons and knives policy.

That page lists specific items allowed and prohibited and where the status is murky.

quote:

Allowed

You can list magazine loading devices, or speedloaders such as:
• Stripper clips
• Moon clips

You can also list accessories and parts for firearms such as:
• Butt plates
• Cases
• Cleaning supplies
• Dies
• Grips
• Holsters
• Molds
• Racks
• Scopes
• Slings
• Stocks
• Storage cases
• Trigger guards

The following firearm parts are allowed on the eBay US site only. The seller must be in the US and offer domestic shipping only:
• En bloc clips
• Barrels – shotgun barrels less than 18 inches and rifle barrels less than 16 inches are prohibited
• Bolts
• Choke tubes
• Cylinders
• Firing pins
• Hammers
• Slides
• Trigger assemblies

Allowed in some situations
You can also list the following parts and accessories under specified conditions:

• Muzzleloader or black powder gun parts or accessories as long as each item is offered in individual listings (having separate listings for items that can be used to build a gun is prohibited)
• Magazines: Sellers must follow all applicable state and local laws for magazine sales. Listings and products for magazines must clearly identify the make and model in the item title or description

Not allowed

You cannot list:

• Firearm frames, including grip frames, muzzleloader and black powder frames or receivers.
• Firearm kits used to create a firearm.
• Firearm receivers, including upper or lower, incomplete, "cut" or "80%" receivers.
• Flash suppressors.
• Any magazine sold in violation of state or local law. High capacity magazines that accept more than 10 rounds are not allowed. Please note that some states may have a lower capacity limit.
• High capacity magazines modified to accept 10 rounds or less are also prohibited unless permanently modified by the manufacturer.
• Magazine extenders.
• Sears.
• Silencers.
• Grenade launchers.
• Parts that enable automatic or automatic-like firearm functionality, such as bump stocks.
• Parts or accessories for assault weapons. This includes parts that are designed for assault weapons, even if the part also fits non-assault weapons.
• Listings or products that mention capability with an assault weapon, even if the part or accessory fits non-assault weapons.
• The following parts for semiautomatic pistols: barrel shroud, forward pistol grip and threaded barrel.
• Pistol conversion kits that make a pistol into a short-barreled rifle.
• Bayonets designed to fit an assault weapon.
• Blueprints, milling or forging specifications for assault weapons.
• Instructions or blueprints on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a fully automatic weapon.

So, that is what you can sell on eBay.

What has this to do with PayPal? Well PayPal has an acceptable use policy you agree to when you open a PayPal account, including a PayPal account you are forced to open as a condition of opening an eBay account ["Some catch, that Catch 22...."]

PayPal’s Acceptable Use Policy states:

quote:

You are independently responsible for complying with all applicable laws in all of your actions related to your use of PayPal's services, regardless of the purpose of the use. In addition, you must adhere to the terms of this Acceptable Use Policy.

Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
• violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.
• relate to transactions involving ... (j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (k) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law….”

Note how short the statement of PayPal’s prohibited activities when eBay’s list is extremely detailed.

What is not made clear is that PayPal, without overtly saying so, is applying eBay’s list to PayPal’s short statement of “certain firearms parts and accessories.”

In addition to the Acceptable Use Policy, you sign on to PayPal’s User Agreement, Restricted Activities, which states:

quote:

Actions We May Take if You Engage in Any Restricted Activities

If we believe that you’ve engaged in any of these activities, we may take a number of actions to protect PayPal, its customers and others at any time in our sole discretion. The actions we make take include, but are not limited to, the following:
• Terminate this user agreement, limit your PayPal account (and any linked Cash Account), and/or close or suspend your PayPal account (and any linked Cash Account), immediately and without penalty to us;
• Refuse to provide the PayPal services to you in the future;
• Limit your access to our websites, software, systems (including any networks and servers used to provide any of the PayPal services) operated by us or on our behalf, your PayPal account or any of the PayPal services, including limiting your ability to pay or send money with any of the payment methods linked to your PayPal account, restricting your ability to send money or make withdrawals;
• Hold the balance in your Cash Account, the balance in your business PayPal account, or any money waiting to be claimed through your personal PayPal account if you do not have a Cash Account linked to your personal PayPal account, for up to 180 days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability or if you have violated our Acceptable Use Policy;

< snip >

• Take legal action against you;
• If you’ve violated our Acceptable Use Policy, then you’re also responsible for damages to PayPal caused by your violation of this policy; or
• If you are a seller and you violate the Acceptable Use Policy, then in addition to being subject to the above actions you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal's damages caused by your violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal's actual damages considering all currently existing circumstances, including the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated because, due to the nature of the violations of the Acceptable Use Policy, actual damages would be impractical or extremely difficult to calculate. PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account you control.

With respect to assessing $2,500 per violation penalties, this appears to me to be how PayPal is confiscating the $13,000 in Galloway Precision’s PayPal account. There is no need to prove any actual damages, or any violations or fines or fees imposed by federal, state, or local governments. They can simply take the money, because YOU AGREED TO LET THEM.

In any event, a penalty or fee imposed by federal, state, or local government would be assessed against Galloway, not PayPal, and to be absolutely clear, SO FAR AS I KNOW THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

Finally, as part of getting an account with PayPal, you agree that the sole means of resolving disputes is Arbitration. Which is paid for by PayPal, provided you make an arbitration claim and follow the myriad other rules that attached.
https://www.paypal.com/us/weba...-full#communications

quote:

Agreement to Arbitrate
You and PayPal agree that any claim or dispute at law or equity that has arisen or may arise between us will be resolved in accordance with the Agreement to Arbitrate provisions set forth below. Please read this information carefully. Among other things it:
Affects your rights and will impact how claims you and we have against each other are resolved.
Includes a Prohibition of Class and Representative Actions and Non-Individualized Relief pursuant to which you agree to waive your right to participate in a class action lawsuit against us.
Requires you to follow the Opt-Out Procedure to opt-out of the Agreement to Arbitrate by mailing us a written notice and the opt-out notice must be postmarked no later than 30 days after the date you accept this user agreement for the first time.
If a dispute arises between you and PayPal, acting as either a buyer or a seller, our goal is to learn about and address your concerns. If we are unable to do so to your satisfaction, we aim to provide you with a neutral and cost effective means of resolving the dispute quickly. Disputes between you and PayPal regarding the PayPal services may be reported to customer service online through the PayPal Help Center at any time, or by calling (888) 221-1161 from Mon-Fri 5:00 AM to 10:00 PM PT and Sat-Sun 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM PT.

Bottom line: PayPal is using terms from eBay's User Agreement to define terms in the PayPal User Agreement.

Somewhere buried in the pages and pages of legal prose is a sentence allowing them to do so.

PayPal then claims a seller violated PayPal's agreement, and assesses the seller the $2,500 per violation damages until the account is depleted of funds.

What an awesome was to way to pump up those end of quarter profits! Legal(??) theft!


What I cannot figure out is how Tractiongrips is getting caught in this mess. The closest guess I have it the grip tape appliqué they sell is being improperly categorized under "grip frames."

Is paypal still a solely owned subsidiary of ebay?

It was, but has it changed? When I was selling and buying on ebay, paypal was the only option for payment. That way ebay and paypal made money. The only way around that was for a buyer/seller to agree on other manners of payment w/o paypal or ebay knowing.

I haven't used either for years.

I fired the bastards 20 years ago & have managed to somehow get along as if they didn't exist, with zero negative impact on anything in my life.

I closed my PayPal account in December 2016.

For some reason I never got around to closing Ebay.

It's gone now however. I think I can survive without either of these sorry businesses.

I'll be checking out the firearms friendly site.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
It's not theft ...

It's theft.

Except that legally, it's not.

It is theft.

I'll split the difference for you guys- it's legalized theft.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

The following firearm parts are allowed on the eBay US site only. The seller must be in the US and offer domestic shipping only:

Trigger assemblies

I presume the OP is selling trigger parts or kits? So what terms did he violate? It sounds like they just arbitrarily and capriciously changed their terms. Not too different from credit card companies. This reminds me of:


Darth Vader: "I am altering the deal"