PayPal is heavily regulated by multiple agencies - SEC, FDIC, CPFB just off the top of my head. Regulator is going to ask if the terms of the agreement were violated. It all starts there.

No advice to give but yes I closed out my eBay & PayPal accounts over their history. Also a recent snatching of funds from me for a sale that was reversed by the scammer.

This may be of interest...

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m12/i16/s01

Were you selling firearms parts?

It's not theft and the sheriff's office "not filing charges" isn't political, it's because you have agreed to terms of service that almost certainly authorize this behavior.

You need to contact an attorney. That's your recourse.

And what are you doing leaving $13k in your PayPal account?

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
It's not theft ...

It's theft.

quote:

And what are you doing leaving $13k in your PayPal account?

Not the least bit relevant, but I can see many reasons for doing so. Convenience for one thing.

I have never had anything to do with PayPal and never would. Despite the fact that I have never used or had a PayPal account, I constantly get e-mails asking me to change my PayPal password, or advising me that my PayPal account needs to be reviewed etc. etc. I once even got a phone call from someone alleging to be from PayPal. If I get all that without even having an account, what would happen if I actually had a real account. No thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
It's not theft ...

It's theft.

Except that legally, it's not. You put money in your bank, they claim you violated their rules and you can't have it back, you don't get to go have the bank arrested for it. No law enforcement agency or prosecuting attorney anywhere is going to fly the flag on attempting a criminal prosecution for this. There's a contractual agreement here. I don't like it any more than anybody else, but your argument is based on emotion and not fact.

quote:

Originally posted by mjlennon:
I think you folks advising GallowayPrecision may not know how much lawyers cost nowadays.

I think a few of us have a pretty good idea. And there’s quite a lot you can get done for less than the $13K they have tied up. I’d start with a harshly worded letter.

As for the likely arbitration clause, I would avoid it if you can (although the Federal Arbitration Act probably applies, so good luck with that), but retaining counsel is a damned good idea, regardless. One thing the FAA requires, if I recall correctly, is the opportunity for the complainant to conduct some sort of discovery, which may be all that is necessary to get PP to change its mind.

-Rob

From PayPal Acceptable Use Policy:
https://www.paypal.com/webapps...a/acceptableuse-full

quote:

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.
relate to transactions involving (j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (k) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

From the PayPal User Agreement:
https://www.paypal.com/us/weba...cale.x=en_US#actions

quote:

Actions We May Take if You Engage in Any Restricted Activities
If we believe that you’ve engaged in any of these activities, we may take a number of actions to protect PayPal, its customers and others at any time in our sole discretion. The actions we make take include, but are not limited to, the following:

Hold the balance in your Cash Account, the balance in your business PayPal account, or any money waiting to be claimed through your personal PayPal account if you do not have a Cash Account linked to your personal PayPal account, for up to 180 days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability or if you have violated our Acceptable Use Policy

It sucks, but if you use PayPal for firearms or firearms parts or accessories, you are taking the risk of having your account frozen for 180 days. This is the contract you agree to when you sign up for an account.

Person to person transactions where the people are smart and don't include a description and mark it a 'friends or family' transaction are pretty low risk (in my opinion), but if I was a business or selling a lot of items that were even remotely firearm related, I wouldn't do it or at least realize that once money is placed in your account you need to move it ASAP. I never leave money in my PayPal account.

And, as always - several attorneys have chimed in - listen to them and not any of us schlubs just expressing opinions.

Here is something truly bizarre: I belong to a local gun club. Annual membership renewal is during the third calendar quarter of each year, right where we are now.

You can pay for membership renewal in person at the monthly meeting, or you can mail a check, or you can do it on line at their website. I normally mail a check, but I decided to do it on line this year.

Click on the link for credit card payment and it takes you to PayPal. Good grief! I guess I'll have to send an email note to the membership committee and ask them what they were thinking of.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
And what are you doing leaving $13k in your PayPal account?

Not the least bit relevant, but I can see many reasons for doing so. Convenience for one thing.

Disagree. PayPal's TOS wrt firearms parts is sufficiently vague that, with all due respect to the OP, ISTM exceedingly bad judgement to leave a lot of money under PayPal's control.

I use PayPal, on occasion, to buy things or make contributions. I would use it to accept payment (in fact I have a commercial account), but I'd never leave that much cash to their tender mercies--even if wasn't selling firearms parts, as the OP does.

Not excusing PayPal's behaviour, but... the parable of the scorpion and the frog comes to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Your post doesn't give enough information to decide whether they did or did not. I understand that you believe they did, but - as is always true - there are almost always two sides to a commercial dispute.

I side with GallowayPrecision. The things he's claiming are no surprise at all. When it comes to seeing PayPal for what they are, I was a trailblazer. I was warning people off of them as long as 17 years ago, and each time I hear about PayPal, my position on their business practices is always confirmed. Paypal doesn't give a shit about their customers. It's even worse than indifference, though. They seem to despise the people who keep them in business.

I learned my lesson regarding PayPal and eBay very cheaply a couple years ago and stopped selling anything on there. It's a shame because it used to be a great way for me to unload items that had value but were no longer needed/wanted. I'm so sorry the OP got burned as badly as they did.

At this point as a seller, you're 100% at the mercy of your buyer and or ebay/paypal who can decide to burn you for virtually any reason they want and leave you with zero recourse with them. Long story short I refused the buyers totally unreasonable request for a refund on a firearms related item, PayPal held my funds for months and would not communicate with me and then months later I received my funds for the sold item. Best I can figure, simply because the buyer never responded to the claim I made against them.

I considered myself lucky and will not sell anything on there any more. Had it not been over such a small dollar amount I may have acquiesced to the buyers unreasonable demands but I decided to take a stand on principle because it pissed me off so much.

I have used PayPal for both buying and selling for years, without every losing a penny.

I have a PayPal specific bank account that never has more than $25 in the account and it is backed by a debit card. I put money into the account when I buy and immediately transfer money from PayPal and then transfer it immediately from the account to another personal account.

Extra work, but no exposure. I never allow money to sit in my bank PayPal account.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
I started pointing this out about six years ago.

I've posted about this on SIGforum several times.

And was roundly derided each time as having my tin foil hat to tight or knowing nothing about the law.

So, I'm taking advantage of GallowayPrecision's misfortune to say

"See??!?!? I told you so!!!!"

Oh, and GallowayPrecision... Sorry about them stealing your money.

PayPal is claiming it was violation of some federal or state statute or regulation simply to make you go away. The fed.gov has no grounds to assess fines against PayPal for any ITAR violation by your firm, the fed.gov must come after you. The same for violations of 27 CFR 478.

Hidden in the User Agreement is an arbitration provision. I highly recommend invoking it. At least that way they must tell you exactly what you did wrong.

ETA: I sent an email to the eddress in your profile.

Check your spam folder, I responded and for whatever reason sometimes my emails go to spam folder for some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Except that legally, it's not. You put money in your bank, they claim you violated their rules and you can't have it back, you don't get to go have the bank arrested for it. No law enforcement agency or prosecuting attorney anywhere is going to fly the flag on attempting a criminal prosecution for this. There's a contractual agreement here. I don't like it any more than anybody else, but your argument is based on emotion and not fact.

It's been awhile since I audited a bank, so I'm not really up on things. What rules could a bank have that if I violated them, would allow them to keep all of my money?

PayPal knows attorneys cost $200+ per hour so they have all manor of virtue signalling business practices that they unleash on small businesses. It hurts the small business but would be eaten up in legal fees in a couple days time so PP knows most people won't go to the mattresses over it. In other words, PP has done risk management and determined they can get away with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
I started pointing this out about six years ago.

I've posted about this on SIGforum several times.

And was roundly derided each time as having my tin foil hat to tight or knowing nothing about the law.

So, I'm taking advantage of GallowayPrecision's misfortune to say

"See??!?!? I told you so!!!!"

I can relate as I've posted this previously:

quote:

I have a relative who bought an online business that used PayPal to process payments. Shortly after my relative began actively marketing and pricing competitively a competitor complained to PP that my relative’s business was violating their terms. My relative had no idea since they bought the business and kept using PP. PP reversed all credit card transactions (ie refunded the money) despite the fact my relative had already shipped. PP said tough shit. My relative sent letters to everyone he shipped to requesting them to pay with money order and had zero people send payment. Expensive lesson on PP’s policies and their business practices.
...
My relative was selling the identical item (not on PayPal's prohibited list) that the previous owner had sold for 2+ years, but according to my relative PP made an interpretation and did exactly what I posted. They could do the exact same thing (i.e. interpret bullet molds to be ammunition or accessory) to the OP that they did to my relative.

In that thread, I was accused of intentionally leaving out facts and called a fear monger. Heck, one know-it-all even cranked up his inner-IndyFFL (insult intended) to 11 and began divining all kinds of things.

Some people just love PayPal, have no qualms giving money to an anti-2A company, and feel the need to bash people who shine light on their arbitrary and capricious business practices.

PayPal is the devil. It took 1 transaction about 15 years ago to figure that out.

If I am doing an online transaction and it ends up at a PayPal portal I cancel the transaction.

I just don't understand why people still use them.

I have built my last 3 flicks almost exclusively with parts (except frame) procured from EBay using PayPal. There are literally tens of thousands of gun parts on sale on eBay right now. The vagueness of the terms and conditions is what gets me. Keep fighting them. Lawyer up if you have to.