The best argument I've seen against buying CCW insurance was posted on this very board.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/2230006084

I'm a defense attorney and I have handled many self-defense cases.

One day one of the bigger companies that offers this service was hosted by my local range and I asked them if they had ever represented any of their customers in court. They never had. Do you want your 2:00 AM call to them to be the first time they ever actually process a claim?

There are a myriad of reasons why I think these services are useless. From what I remember, there is a relatively low cap on expert witness fees. Also, I can't help but wonder if they will defer to the attorney's discretion on which experts to retain or whether they have their own at negotiated rates. I've won multiple self-defense cases with a ballistics expert out of Indiana. I want my guy because we gel, not someone cheaper because they're local or anything like that.

Clean self-defense cases are exceedingly rare. When I say clean, what I mean is usually it's hood shit as opposed to one completely innocent party being attacked by a felon. The internet gun forum concept that you need a lawyer if you engage in a clean self-defense shooting is overstated. Maybe this is different in other parts of the country.

Finally, I think people overestimate the price of an attorney. Paying several hundred a year for an insurance premium on a very low probability event only makes sense if the cost of loss is excessive. Criminal defense attorneys quote very high rates but a good starting negotiating point is a quarter to a third of the price you're quoted. Seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
USCCA. Its costs a dollar a day.

Why do I hear Wilford Brimley in my head?

Wilford and I have similar mustaches!

We have castle law, I'm not too concerned.

No

Maybe better to pay Wilford for some protection.
Wadda ya think Mitch?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tNEvCdVtk0

No. Where I live it is unlikely that a good shoot would even make it to a grand jury, much less trial.

I have Texas Law Shield. It’s a whopping $14 a month. Good friend of mine is a regional manager for them. I’ve had it explained sufficiently for me to spend the money.

I’ve never known anyone who has known anyone who has known anyone who has even been close to someone involved in a self defense shooting. I know the odds.

Having said that, I live in Florida and there’s a lot of crazy in Florida. I have a CCW and carry frequently outside my home and I do belong to one of the “not insurance” programs. I’m glad I do. It is best described as a “legal service membership plan” that focuses on providing legal services in a self defense shooting, not just paying for them. I have read the fine print, I do understand what I’m involved with.

Since it’s not insurance they aren’t beholden to the licensing and tax policies that the traditional insurance companies are. For those depending on their homeowner’s liability policies to see them through, what if your company decides to go all anti 2A on you? The credit card companies, the banks, and social media sites have already tilted this way. You can see it coming and know it’s true. If they can clamp down on protective dogs, as about a most passive defense of your home as you can get, they can damn well use the same constraints on your having a weapon that could actually take a life.

I’ve chosen CCW Safe for a number of reasons but there are several more programs that appear to offer legit services. It is self funded through membership fees and the like.

In a nutshell, I’m covered wherever I can legally carry my weapon, Florida and elsewhere. My wife is covered in the home only. The program doesn’t place a $$ limit on the defense and will fly experts to you for additional advice/counsel if it’s required. You may choose your own attorney or they will recommend one for you. One of their lead attorneys represented George Zimmerman. It is the only program that HAS defended, and won, a murder charge for a client.
The yearly cost is minuscule compared to what they offer should you be so unfortunate to require their services. They don’t seek recoupment should your case not go as planned. They have many videos and podcasts online as learning and information tools.

I have a couple sincere questions for member Fnforme, an attorney from Miami, (the originator of the negative bias post in this thread) or any other attorney that represents clients involved in “good” shoots, ie: home invasions, clear cut stopping a bad guy, etc. He’s stated that he has handled and won many shooting cases. Well what does it cost the defendant for a trial like that? What are your fees like? Were the cases from within the home or out and about. Even with Florida’s good castle doctrine, the defendant must still have had some costs to him, what were they? Fnforme’s statement that the notion one needs CCW insurance, based on an Internet forum, is “overstated” really isn’t when you consider the financial ramifications to the defendant. Could ruin him/family for life! Not a small consideration. His statement that “paying several hundred dollars/year for a liability premium for a low probability event” is foolish. I agree and I don’t. The cost for my program is extremely reasonable and they offer a military discount

Anyway, one of the biggest considerations for me was the fact that should I be so unlucky, so unfortunate or ill-fated to find myself in this situation, I could call someone, get advice and representation, and feel pretty secure that someone may be looking out for my interests. I may be wrong but I don’t see myself in the proper frame of mind to track down a lawyer in the heat of the moment, make some rash/erroneous errors, and put myself and my family’s future at risk. That ain’t in my bailiwick!

I have law shield and NRA retired officer coverage on top of my PI and Instructor liability policies. They just cover legal expenses, but even if you are 100% right, legal fees can break you if you are subject to overzealous law enforcement or ambulance chasers. We have immunity laws in Florida but just the same the insurance gives me a bit more peace of mind.

No. I don't believe it's allowed to be sold in Washington State where some Democrats have called it 'Murder Insurance'. Ughhh...

So, just a quick question for you piece of mind types. What’s the name of the attorney that this it’s-not-insurance-insurance is going to provide you. How many cases has he/she tried before a jury? What’s his win/loss? How long has he been with the Bar? How many grievances have been filed against him? How long has he practiced law in your area? Is he a former prosecutor?

Anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
So, just a quick question for you piece of mind types. What’s the name of the attorney that this it’s-not-insurance-insurance is going to provide you. How many cases has he/she tried before a jury? What’s his win/loss? How long has he been with the Bar? How many grievances have been filed against him? How long has he practiced law in your area? Is he a former prosecutor?

Anyone?

I like to try and see both sides of an issue. I don't have a dog in this fight and my goal is to get inputs to enable me to make the right personal decision for me. I realize what may be right for me won't be right for everybody in this case same as we there's no right health insurance plan for all of us either or even life insurance plan.

Your questions touch on the quality of "protection" you will get should you need it. I'll take another post here as fact that none of the companies have actually handled an actual claim for services.

Assume you're running one of these companies and you're making money hand over fist. You get your very first claim for services. Do you provide sloppy, second-rate service that will make the client lose his case? Do you risk him losing, that fact leaking out and risk your gravy train? Or do you make sure your client gets the best defense considering the specifics and perhaps even use this as a promotional material?

What do you think the company's optimal strategy is?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
So, just a quick question for you piece of mind types. What’s the name of the attorney that this it’s-not-insurance-insurance is going to provide you. How many cases has he/she tried before a jury? What’s his win/loss? How long has he been with the Bar? How many grievances have been filed against him? How long has he practiced law in your area? Is he a former prosecutor?

Anyone?

Rey HRH “ Your questions touch on the quality of "protection" you will get should you need it. I'll take another post here as fact that none of the companies have actually handled an actual claim for services. ”



Geeez, you guys even bother to read previous posts? Your questions asked and answered.

Stkfox. CCW Safe. One of their lead attorneys represented George Zimmerman. It is the only program that HAS defended, and won, a murder charge for a client.

Actual real world quality of protection? I hope to never have to find out, wouldn’t wish it on anybody.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
So, just a quick question for you piece of mind types. What’s the name of the attorney that this it’s-not-insurance-insurance is going to provide you. How many cases has he/she tried before a jury? What’s his win/loss? How long has he been with the Bar? How many grievances have been filed against him? How long has he practiced law in your area? Is he a former prosecutor?

Anyone?

I have a US Law Shield (Texas Law Shield) membership. In my area, the assigned attorney would be Evan Nappan (E.F. Nappan, Attorney at Law, PC - Concord, NH).

Evan Nappan has over 30 years of experience in the area of firearm law and is a subject matter expert in all firearms related issues. His Firm's focus is on criminal defense with a concentration in the area of firearms, knives, and weapons. They also provide professional services for NICS Denials, Hunting & Fishing Violations, Domestic Violence, Firearm Licensing, Annulments (clearing your record), Firearm and Property Seizures, and Forfeitures.​

http://www.efnappen.com/about.html

People have been sued in Civil Court even though the DA declined to file criminal charges . Just because your Prosecutor is 2A friendly , that's only part of the equation . He can't help you in Civil Court where it could cost you everything you own to defend yourself .

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
People have been sued in Civil Court even though the DA declined to file criminal charges . Just because your Prosecutor is 2A friendly , that's only part of the equation . He can't help you in Civil Court where it could cost you everything you own to defend yourself .

CCW Safe covers 100% civil costs up front with no occurrence limit. And the same for the criminal costs as well as costs associated with private investigators, expert witnesses, and administrative defense issues.

This is not to push CCW Safe, just relaying what I know about my own program. I’m sure some other programs offer programs along similar lines. All of them worth looking into and comparing.

quote:

I have a couple sincere questions for member Fnforme, an attorney from Miami, (the originator of the negative bias post in this thread) or any other attorney that represents clients involved in “good” shoots, ie: home invasions, clear cut stopping a bad guy, etc. He’s stated that he has handled and won many shooting cases. Well what does it cost the defendant for a trial like that? What are your fees like? Were the cases from within the home or out and about.

What he actually said as I recall is that the clear cut cases, real good shoots, never made it anywhere near this far. As in no arrest, no significant legal work required, if any.

The cases he said he did see or represent himself were generally hood rats or otherwise less that upstanding citizens, that happened to be somewhat innocent, or enough to at least attempt a self-defense claim. Not what most of us would term good shoots, just some that had a glimmer of hope and the dough to pay.

Example, you're a known drug dealer or other criminal known to carry lots of cash, wear expensive jewelry. One of your contemporaries spot you in a weak moment when you're not working, pulls a gun or knife and requests your goodies at threat of death or bodily harm.
You shoot. You happen to also have a trunk full of contraband so the cops say you were involved in serious criminal activity at the time and decide to charge you and let the legal system sort it out. Maybe they get lucky and you don't get off and they got a twofer in this incident.
Or you're in a bar fight, drunk, said some stupid shit right before. You get the first punch in and the guy happens to hit his head and die. Off you go.
Remember the lawyer guy last year, the BLM peaceful protests, out in front of his el-grande home with his waving guns they appear to have never held or shot before?
These are the type cases he said he had represented and sometimes won. Maybe the state paid, maybe they had enough of a stash from their activities to pay. Probably a variety of those situations.

Any of this sound like you? Not me either. Or any of my friends or even family members. I don't live in a state or area of my state where I've ever heard a remotely reasonable case get jammed up. You can't be sued here for a good shoot either. And in spite of what they say, lawyers working on a percentage don't take cases they can't win on those terms. That is what Fnforme was talking about.

If it does sound like a situation you may find yourself in then you may want to consider this NOT insurance.

You can cherry pick cases and situations and make it fit your own situation and opinion . One Lawyers opinion does not set the standard for the whole industry . I prefer to carry Insurance ( And yes it is Insurance ) . You do you , and I'll do me . I won't criticize your position and you should do the same .

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
You can cherry pick cases and situations and make it fit your own situation and opinion . One Lawyers opinion does not set the standard for the whole industry . I prefer to carry Insurance ( And yes it is Insurance ) . You do you , and I'll do me . I won't criticize your position and you should do the same .

Criticize?? Huh? Why so blue lil’ camper? Not criticizing anyone. Just having an exchange of ideas and I’m merely relating the facts, as I know them, based on the program I have. That’s what the OP had asked for in his first post.

Speaking of exchange of ideas, would you mind relaying a couple yourself? What company do you go with and what kind of premiums are we looking at for your carry insurance? Hell, I’d be willing to look into other options if they were cost effective and provided a good level of security.

Thanks!