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I'm pro-life. But I am wondering. Your 16 year old daughter or granddaughter gets raped by a schizophrenic bipolar mental patient with an IQ of 65. A pregnancy results. Anybody here thinks it's a good idea to have a law that says the girl can't get an abortion, and anybody who assists her goes to prison? Just wondering.
 
Posts: 190 | Location: New Jersey  | Registered: May 03, 2019Report This Post
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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
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Originally posted by arcwelder76:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Of course I know what you mean by "survive outside the womb," but the fact of the matter is that no baby can survive outside of the womb without his or her mother (or father or some caregiver).


Surviving outside the womb has an obvious meaning.


I know, hence the first part of my post.

I'm simply pointing out the nonsensical nature of saying that an abortion during the 1st trimester is ok but during the 3rd trimester is not. Or even saying that during the 3rd trimester is ok but during the first year after birth is not. I can't think of any logical argument that differentiates any of those instances if we are being honest with ourselves.


Uh, what?

Differentiating between 1st, 2nd, and third trimester abortions is not "nonsensical." If you think pointing out that babies die if they don't have food and shelter is the same as survival outside the womb, then you're missing the point.

During the first and second trimester, if a baby is removed from the womb, you can feed and cloth it all you like, survival is unlikely. During the third trimester, the baby has an excellent chance of survival on its own. Which doesn't mean food and shelter... It means it will not die on its own unless neglected... It's not going to die without constant medical supervision.

Put more concisely, in the third trimester you're killing a fully formed human, without question. It's all murder, but during the 1st and second, the baby isn't done yet. During the third, it's done, you're just waiting for the flaky crust to set.

Third trimester, partial and insane "post birth" abortions are savagery. If you're going to murder your kid, you do it before the third trimester or not at all. The differentiation does have importance.


Arc.
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Posts: 25939 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Fed161:
I'm pro-life. But I am wondering. Your 16 year old daughter or granddaughter gets raped by a schizophrenic bipolar mental patient with an IQ of 65. A pregnancy results. Anybody here thinks it's a good idea to have a law that says the girl can't get an abortion, and anybody who assists her goes to prison? Just wondering.


I understand the emotion of the point you are making. Honestly I do. But the true pro-life view is that ALL life is sacred--period. Sure, if my 16-year old daughter were raped, yes, it would be hard to handle. But that is where adoption could be something to consider. And yes, there are people who would adopt a child under the circumstances you describe.


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Posts: 1000 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: March 16, 2006Report This Post
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Originally posted by Bluecobra:
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I'm anti abortion, but not pro-life either. I want my state to determine on a local level, it is different in Alabama than New York, so why not leave it to the voters? Additionally the ability to "survive outside the womb" is different in NYC and Montgomery Alabama, there's no Mount Sinai Hospital in AL. A child born prematurely, aborted, or induced can live at earlier stages of development in richer cities.

I've read the Constitution before, it's been a while since I did, does anybody know what section contains the section in the recognizing the right to kill a baby?


Just an FYI - we have excellent healthcare in parts of AL, probably better than in much of NY or VA. Don't fall for the stereotype.


When googling it I come up with a number of results that place AL in bottom of states. Here's one example I found.. My point wasn't to insult AL. It was that viability of a fetus depends on access to better or worse healthcare.



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Posts: 14261 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Report This Post
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Originally posted by arcwelder76:

Uh, what?

Differentiating between 1st, 2nd, and third trimester abortions is not "nonsensical." If you think pointing out that babies die if they don't have food and shelter is the same as survival outside the womb, then you're missing the point.



No, you're missing my point, which is that a baby is still a human being whether it's in the first trimester, third trimester, or one year old. You can neglect a child who is in the womb just as much as you can neglect a child outside of the womb. So yes, I don't differentiate, since a healthy first trimester baby properly cared for has a great chance of growing into a healthy adult same as a healthy one year old.

I didn't mean to get too much into the weeds here about when a baby is viable outside of the womb. To me, as to the question of when the baby is considered a person, I think it's irrelevant. I can appreciate that some people would consider that an opinion. Very well.


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Posts: 22371 | Location: Ski Town, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Report This Post
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Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
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Originally posted by jhe888:
I know many think the conservative majority on the court means they are interested in overturning Roe. I, quite strongly, believe they are not.


I agree with both you and chellim1 regarding the fact that it should be a state issue for voters to decide and the courts should not be involved.

Also agree that SCOTUS won't hear this case because I don't think there is a 'conservative' majority. At best it's a 4-3-2 court as it sits now. Four solid liberals, 3 solid conservatives and 2 swing votes who are more interested in the Court's institutional reputation than any legal theories. (Roberts and Kavanaugh- based on his rulings thus far).

I also think that the VAST majority of Americans favor a middle road on abortion and neither of the 2 extremes. None of the barbarous late term abortions, but also exceptions allowed for health, rape, incest, etc.

Keep in mind the media will be running this, so there haven't been and won't be any questions on post birth abortion - the self appointed 'Fact Checkers' have declared that to be false. The questions will all be 'Do you support women's rights' - and it will be the major focus of all the debates and interviews going into 2020 now.


I don't think it is political conservatism - it not wanting to undo 40 years of settled law on which a lot of other law is founded. Which is judicial conservatism, and a totally different thing. That is what a reversal of Roe would do. They won't do it. (I believe even Scalia suggested he wouldn't reverse Roe after that long.)

So the court won't reverse it. But it may well allow more restrictions and limitations. Time limits, notice requirements, clinic licensing, etc. But no outright reversal. The Alabama law will not be taken up by the Supreme Court.




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Posts: 47965 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Report This Post
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There is reason, logic, and science behind what a third trimester cutoff for abortion means. Just because you don't agree with abortion at all, that is no reason to dismiss something as "nonsensical."

Everybody gets a Nobel Peace Prize for insisting that "all life is precious" or pick your trope. It's easy moral ground to stake out, and it must be exhausting patting yourself on the back for that.

Meanwhile, the world is not so black and white, and government is tool ill suited to nuance. Laws seldom are well crafted. An all out ban on abortion is a crappy "solution" with a high political cost.

As we discuss it, we all understand the difference between what we would do, and what others should do, correct? If you're willing to use law and the government in this manor, then you have little to quibble with the left and its push to disarm us all.


Arc.
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"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

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Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

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Posts: 25939 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Report This Post
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If access to abortion is so critical to women's health and society at large, why can't we make Planned Parenthood (so called) perform them for free?



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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

I'd like to send the extremists on both sides of this issue some place hot and fiery.


So you would weigh the level of "extremism" between the recent New York abortion bill that would effectively allow post-birth abortion with that of the Alabama abortion bill that essentially puts the life of the unborn above all else. Because that's what the Alabama bill does, right? It says life is paramount, regardless. "That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life , Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." You find that as extreme as the position of the New York bill?

But anyway, let's realize something. The point of this bill is not to ban abortion. It is an attempt to force this issue back to the Supreme Court where they hope that it will be overturned which then puts the issue back to the states. That is the reason for the exclusion of cases of rape and incest, to force a court battle.


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Posts: 22371 | Location: Ski Town, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Report This Post
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Originally posted by Skins2881:
quote:
Originally posted by Bluecobra:
quote:


I'm anti abortion, but not pro-life either. I want my state to determine on a local level, it is different in Alabama than New York, so why not leave it to the voters? Additionally the ability to "survive outside the womb" is different in NYC and Montgomery Alabama, there's no Mount Sinai Hospital in AL. A child born prematurely, aborted, or induced can live at earlier stages of development in richer cities.

I've read the Constitution before, it's been a while since I did, does anybody know what section contains the section in the recognizing the right to kill a baby?


Just an FYI - we have excellent healthcare in parts of AL, probably better than in much of NY or VA. Don't fall for the stereotype.


When googling it I come up with a number of results that place AL in bottom of states. Here's one example I found.. My point wasn't to insult AL. It was that viability of a fetus depends on access to better or worse healthcare.
Not to get us off track, but there is a big discrepancy between the quality of healthcare in rural Alabama vs. the cities. Alabama's infant mortality rate is in the bottom 10 in the nation, but most of that is driven by high numbers in the poor black belt areas. Having traveled much and lived many places, I would place the quality of health care in urban Alabama near the top of the country. Rural areas, not so much. The health care is there, but many don't have ready access to it.


J


"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5
 
Posts: 5089 | Location: Missouri | Registered: May 08, 2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by arcwelder76:
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Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
If men could get pregnant abortions would be available everywhere and anywhere; the gym, repair shops, VFW posts, gun clubs, etc. We would not let anyone tell us what we can or cannot do.


If only men could get pregnant humans would’ve gone extinct long ago.


If it were men who gave birth, yes I do think that birth control and abortion would be viewed differently. I don't know about abortion being available "everywhere," but I do think this moral debate about abortion and the rights of women(men in this context) would be very different. This is all assuming the societal structures remain the same.

As far as humans going extinct if men gave birth instead of women, what is the logic there? If a species has evolved to reproduce a given way, it would continue to do so.

An outright ban on abortion makes as much sense as an outright ban on firearms. It does nothing to actually reduce abortion or help people. Those seeking abortions will travel, or use improvised means.

Sex education and contraception are the actually effective means of reducing abortions. But again, just like the gun control debate, the idea that there is a zero sum, or that this is a simple moral issue, ignores the human condition and doesn't better it. It goes beyond what government should do in peoples lives and with their rights.

If people want to ban abortion, they need to be willing to fund with tax dollars the social support programs for the unwanted children. Particularly if they also oppose contraception and sex education.
I favor chastity boxes. . . .

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Posts: 22248 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
There is reason, logic, and science behind what a third trimester cutoff for abortion means. Just because you don't agree with abortion at all, that is no reason to dismiss something as "nonsensical."

Everybody gets a Nobel Peace Prize for insisting that "all life is precious" or pick your trope. It's easy moral ground to stake out, and it must be exhausting patting yourself on the back for that.

Meanwhile, the world is not so black and white, and government is tool ill suited to nuance. Laws seldom are well crafted. An all out ban on abortion is a crappy "solution" with a high political cost.



And I'll repeat myself.

quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I can appreciate that some people would consider that an opinion. Very well.


But to your first point, there is reason, logic, and science for the argument against abortion during the first trimester as well.

I'll just say that I have not nor am I advocating for a complete ban on abortion. I've only been saying that there is an argument for that position.

As we discuss it, we all understand the difference between what we would do, and what others should do, correct? If you're willing to use law and the government in this manor, then you have little to quibble with the left and its push to disarm us all

Well, I know that i wouldn't kill my wife or three year old daughter just because one day they become an inconvenience for me. Is it reasonable for me to expect my neighbor to act the same? If they won't, should I expect the government and the force of law to step in? After all, my neighbor killed his wife in the privacy of his own home. What business is it of anyone else's?

Some people actually don't see a difference in the two cases above. That's important to understand when trying to see the most pro-life person's point-of-view. Murder is murder.

Now, do I personally believe that? I'll just say that I personally know more than one woman who has had an abortion. Have I ever considered her to be a murderer? No, in fact, I haven't.


~Alan

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Posts: 22371 | Location: Ski Town, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Report This Post
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I used to cringe when conservatives would push the abortion issue. It always seemed like a loser to me. Since NY and VA made it possible to kill a baby outside the womb I feel it is necessary.
 
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Originally posted by jhe888:
I don't think it is political conservatism - it not wanting to undo 40 years of settled law on which a lot of other law is founded. Which is judicial conservatism, and a totally different thing. That is what a reversal of Roe would do. They won't do it. (I believe even Scalia suggested he wouldn't reverse Roe after that long.)

So the court won't reverse it. But it may well allow more restrictions and limitations. Time limits, notice requirements, clinic licensing, etc. But no outright reversal. The Alabama law will not be taken up by the Supreme Court.
I think this more aptly can be called judicial cowardice by SCOTUS in not setting aside Roe. The high court totally screwed up when they approved ROE in the way they did out of thin air. Anyone who's honest knows this. It was bad jurisprudence then and its still bad jurisprudence 40 years later. But justices like Roberts aren't going to fix one of the biggest blunders the high court has ever made because other law has come down after ROE. So essentially, we've had volumes of bad laws starting with ROE and coming thereafter that no one on SCOTUS has the backbone or integrity to set right. This is why I've lost faith in the court to ever do the right thing for the American people. Though it should not, the court runs on politics just like everything else in Washington.


-----------------------------
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Posts: 28446 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Report This Post
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Originally posted by Bytes:
Since NY and VA made it possible to kill a baby outside the womb I feel it is necessary.


Just FYI - that bill in Virginia was voted down in the House and never made it to the governor to sign. He was expressing support for it, but it did not pass.

The New York bill was signed into law.



“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams
 
Posts: 28049 | Location: VA | Registered: June 29, 2001Report This Post
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Men have no say in the matter because they aren’t able to give birth “ is then followed by “If a woman decides to have the baby the man will be financially responsible for it.” That has never made sense to me.



I found what you said riveting.
 
Posts: 9774 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: June 06, 2007Report This Post
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Originally posted by Fed161:
I'm pro-life. But I am wondering. Your 16 year old daughter or granddaughter gets raped by a schizophrenic bipolar mental patient with an IQ of 65. A pregnancy results. Anybody here thinks it's a good idea to have a law that says the girl can't get an abortion, and anybody who assists her goes to prison? Just wondering.
I'm with you. When the woman has done nothing wrong and isn't using an abortion like it's birth control I have no problem terminating the pregnancy. In this case you would also know exactly when it happened and could handle the situation before there is a heartbeat or any pain for the fetus.

These ridiculous late term abortions is what made the pendulum swing the other way.
 
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So is Alabama also going to ban men getting an operation to shoot blanks? Unless they do this they are hypocrites.



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Posts: 9401 | Registered: January 16, 2010Report This Post
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Originally posted by Prefontaine:
So is Alabama also going to ban men getting an operation to shoot blanks? Unless they do this they are hypocrites.
Nonsense. If I remember 8th grade biology correctly, it takes both sperm and egg to make a person.


J


"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5
 
Posts: 5089 | Location: Missouri | Registered: May 08, 2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by Prefontaine:
So is Alabama also going to ban men getting an operation to shoot blanks? Unless they do this they are hypocrites.


The Alabama bill has nothing to do with the reproductive rights of either men or women.

It deals with after reproduction has already occurred.


~Alan

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Posts: 22371 | Location: Ski Town, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Report This Post
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