SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Alabama abortion ban: Nation’s strictest abortion bill passes; no rape, incest exceptions
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
To a certain extent, that is true. It's long been a nightmare issue for conservative politicians, just ask Todd Akin. Putting it before the Supreme Court does intensify the issue. But that's not where it should ultimately be decided. This illustrates all the more why it should be returned to being a State issue, not a national issue. If I'm running for a State legislature position, I'm going to be in tune with my local district. It won't hurt me politically. If I'm running for US Congress, or Senate I will say "I'm running for Federal office, that's a State issue. I'm opposed to a one-sized solution, imposed on all, whether it's a Human Life Amendment or federal protection or funding of abortion" We won't have peace until the law reflects the local mores of the people who must live under the law. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
I think a potential flip side of the coin is the Lefts rabid embrace of the really late term abortions - even lots of Pro-Choice people are really really against that. So say that it's legal to wake up one morning, not want a baby at 8.5 months pregnant and abort it is lunacy; if it was delivered that day it would be fine and viable. And I'm not a die hard or even firm Pro-Lifer, but that is just lunacy. Maybe if we start calling all school shootings just 'really really late term, large scale abortions', then maybe the left will drop the gun control rhetoric? | |||
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Member |
I'm not sure how disallowing an amendment which would have inserted rape and incest exceptions can be viewed as a good thing. | |||
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At Jacob's Well |
The whole point of the Alabama bill, as stated openly by its authors, is to establish the "personhood" of a fetus. Exceptions for rape or incest muddy the waters (i.e. it's a person, unless we don't like how it was created) and negate the entire point of the bill. This bill is intended to support a Supreme Court challenge to Roe vs. Wade and was crafted to provide the best possible argument for that purpose. I've never understood the rape or incest exceptions anyway. How is it the baby's fault how it was created? J Rak Chazak Amats | |||
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| Banned |
There's got to be some fair balance of practicality with one's strict moral stance, no? The Supreme Court has shown lately that it'll rule not only on a Constitutional basis, but on what is practical, and what achieves a desired outcome. | |||
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Bad dog! |
The left always overreaches, on everything. They are by nature extremists, ultimately wanting total power, so they know no limits. The governor of Virginia saying that a baby could be "kept comfortable" and then, on the mother's decision, be killed-- that turns the stomach of even some who are pro abortion. I know it turns my stomach. ______________________________________________________ "You get much farther with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone." | |||
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The loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room |
Exactly. I'm in complete agreement and I'm thankful the tide seems to be shifting on this issue and people seeing it for what it really is--the murder of the most innocent. I'm also thankful the writers had the foresight to craft a bill that could potentially reverse Roe v. Wade. Hopeful. . . ======================== NRA Basic Pistol Instructor NRA Home Firearm Safety Instructor NRA Range Officer NRA Life Member Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #13-943 | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
The right does the same, as evidenced by this bill. I don't believe in unfettered abortion, but if any representative of mine voted for something this extreme they'd never see another vote from me. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| At Jacob's Well |
That last sentence bothers me. I don't disagree with what you said, but the Supreme Court should have no desired outcome other than the protection of the Constitution. I know that's not reality, but altruism brings a certain blind comfort with it.  Yes, blind moral legalism has to be tempered in some cases by common sense. Jesus taught that principle when the Pharisees accused him of breaking the Sabbath law to not work by healing (Mark 3:1-6). Blind legalism does no favors. But the heart behind the morality doesn't change. In the abortion case, the moral standard to not commit murder is the guiding principle. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. For example, the Alabama bill allows for abortion when the mother's life is in danger. The real debate is where those "common sense" exceptions are valid. I think most (hopefully all) would agree that a mother's life is equal to a baby's life. But is the avoidance of hardship for a mother equal to a baby's life? Those are the questions the courts are going to have to grapple with. J Rak Chazak Amats | |||
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Ammoholic |
This ∆∆∆ I'm anti abortion, but not pro-life either. I want my state to determine on a local level, it is different in Alabama than New York, so why not leave it to the voters? Additionally the ability to "survive outside the womb" is different in NYC and Montgomery Alabama, there's no Mount Sinai Hospital in AL. A child born prematurely, aborted, or induced can live at earlier stages of development in richer cities. I've read the Constitution before, it's been a while since I did, does anybody know what section contains the section in the recognizing the right to kill a baby? Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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Chip away the stone |
I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but I can't see how they'd win that argument in court. That being said, to me "personhood" is the crux of the whole thing, and that discussion is mostly ignored in public debate. When, in the eyes of the law, should a developing fetus be considered to have become a person? For me it's clearly not a the moment of fertilization, but clearly also well before full term. I wish more public figures would openly debate personhood, based on our best understanding of fetal development. Instead, the way it's framed is if you are pro-life, you therefore must oppose even all first-term abortions, and if you're pro-choice, you must support abortion up until the moment just before the baby is fully delivered. To me both positions aren't legally nor morally defensible. | |||
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| Banned |
Ben Shapiro does a good job of this. | |||
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| Member |
Just an FYI - we have excellent healthcare in parts of AL, probably better than in much of NY or VA. Don't fall for the stereotype. | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
I know, hence the first part of my post. I'm simply pointing out the nonsensical nature of saying that an abortion during the 1st trimester is ok but during the 3rd trimester is not. Or even saying that during the 3rd trimester is ok but during the first year after birth is not. I can't think of any logical argument that differentiates any of those instances if we are being honest with ourselves. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Chip away the stone |
I'd argue that he doesn't, at least not in terms that I'm talking about. Everything I've heard from him argues that the fetus, from it's very beginning, is a human life, which technically I can kind of understand in that it's living cells and has unique, human DNA, but I've not heard him say it is at that point in time a person. A potential person, yes, but an actual person, I've not heard that from him. If yes, I'd like to know what his definition of a person is. | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
I agree on all the federalism points. Here is what will happen: The circuit court of appeals for Alabama will strike down this law, as it has to under Roe. The Supreme Court will not take it up, as they also believe Roe is the law and are not interested in revisiting it wholesale. This won't even put any part of abortion before the Supremes. What might is one of the laws now that restricts abortion. A law banning second trimester abortions presents a question the Supremes might be interested in. A near total ban does not. I know many think the conservative majority on the court means they are interested in overturning Roe. I, quite strongly, believe they are not.This message has been edited. Last edited by: jhe888, The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Member |
Most people are conflicted on this issue and don't agree with either extreme. | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
My first thought as well, its setting a stage for a media push that may screw up 2020 elections in the house and senate for the R even if Trump wins POTUS again.... At least it will be another wild electionThis message has been edited. Last edited by: HRK, | |||
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Info Guru |
I agree with both you and chellim1 regarding the fact that it should be a state issue for voters to decide and the courts should not be involved. Also agree that SCOTUS won't hear this case because I don't think there is a 'conservative' majority. At best it's a 4-3-2 court as it sits now. Four solid liberals, 3 solid conservatives and 2 swing votes who are more interested in the Court's institutional reputation than any legal theories. (Roberts and Kavanaugh- based on his rulings thus far). I also think that the VAST majority of Americans favor a middle road on abortion and neither of the 2 extremes. None of the barbarous late term abortions, but also exceptions allowed for health, rape, incest, etc. Keep in mind the media will be running this, so there haven't been and won't be any questions on post birth abortion - the self appointed 'Fact Checkers' have declared that to be false. The questions will all be 'Do you support women's rights' - and it will be the major focus of all the debates and interviews going into 2020 now. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| Nullus Anxietas |
I think it's true that many people are conflicted to one degree or another, but I expect it's more a case of "Most people have an opinion, but are inclined to let others live by their own precepts." The extremists on one end are willing to allow what is essentially "abortion outside the womb" (aka: "after-" and "partial-birth abortion") while the other extreme would ban all abortion, regardless of any qualifiers. I'd like to send the extremists on both sides of this issue some place hot and fiery. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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