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I've been doing some research online regarding .45acp JHP for self-defense. Many ballistic gel tests show that .45acp JHP, in general, does not have very good expansion for most self-defense JHP loads if any expansion at all. Granted I carry sig v-crown 230gr JHP but I am wondering if anyone out there carries FMJ?


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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They worked very well for American Soldiers during the Philippine–American War.

They also should be considered okay by those who say it isn't caliber, but bullet placement that counts.

I consider them okay for self defense, but carry HPs anyway, simply as something that makes me feel better.
 
Posts: 9636 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Flash-LB:
They worked very well for American Soldiers during the Philippine–American War.

They also should be considered okay by those who say it isn't caliber, but bullet placement that counts.

I consider them okay for self defense, but carry HPs anyway, simply as something that makes me feel better.


That is a very salient point you made there. I will say, though, that previous era firearms were not optimized to feed JHP anyway. Not that it matters since there were hardly any "self-defense" loads available for civilian or military use (to my knowledge; someone please feel free to enlighten me). I am asking the question mainly because I shoot way more FMJ than JHP, both of which almost always have a different point of impact at the range. Money-wise, I might start carrying FMJ just because you get more than twice the bullets for the same $$$. Now I'm left wondering if I should stock-up on v-crown ammo for retention/prep purposes, or if I should just shoot it and switch over entirely to FMJ. Any thoughts?


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I shoot essentially nothing but FMJs but I'm a handloader and I load them up to where the point of impact is the same as the JHPs I carry (and Mrs. Flash carries).

You're not necessarily right about HPs not being available though, as I was casting them for my Mom, Dad, brother and me when I was 9 and that was the mid 1950s, so they were around, probably not in commercial form though.

The military has never used them, mainly because of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body, but the U.S. never signed that Convention, merely abided by it. However, the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering",

There was a prior prohibition, though, the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable.
 
Posts: 9636 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Flash-LB:
I shoot essentially nothing but FMJs but I'm a handloader and I load them up to where the point of impact is the same as the JHPs I carry (and Mrs. Flash carries).

You're not necessarily right about HPs not being available though, as I was casting them for my Mom, Dad, brother and me when I was 9 and that was the mid 1950s, so they were around, probably not in commercial form though.

The military has never used them, mainly because of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body, but the U.S. never signed that Convention, merely abided by it. However, the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering",

There was a prior prohibition, though, the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable.


Thank you for the insight! I guess now I have to find a brand of FMJ that shoots the same/similar point of impact as the v-crown I carry. I've been meaning to try out some Federal HST self-defense rounds but they are hard to come by where I reside; I am usually limited to Hornady Critical Defense, Sig V-Crown, Ammo Inc JHP, and Sierra (sometimes). For FMJ I practice with Ammo Inc 230gr 45acp. If anyone knows off hand what would shoot with a similar point of impact out of a 4.4in barrel in a P220, please let me know.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I always recommend hollow points when they are available, but in 45 acp, hardball works just as well with minimal overpentration, if any at all.
I work forensics, so while see a lot of shootings, this information is far from scientific.
 
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IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by josp:
I always recommend hollow points when they are available, but in 45 acp, hardball works just as well with minimal overpentration, if any at all.
I work forensics, so while see a lot of shootings, this information is far from scientific.


Thank you for this information. This is useful because I find it too expensive to train with enough JHP to the extent that I become as proficient as with a hard ball cartridge. A box of 50rds in my area of 230gr hard ball goes for $28 while a box of 20rds of 230gr JHP goes for $30. I can shoot more than twice as much for $2 less. Ammo prices in general today are very high so every bullet counts.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.


mi45acp
 
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.45 works fine with no expansion! Big Grin
 
Posts: 3850 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: August 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
.45 works fine with no expansion! Big Grin


I don't doubt it! Do you carry .45acp hardball?


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.


If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.

Look at the FBI study after the Miami Dade shooting and their comments in their 1987 wound ballistics workshop also questioned the .45 acp.

However, I would say that it is a reasonable expectation that a pair of properly placed .45 hardballs would be effective against an unarmored human opponent.

I'd only recommend FMJs for those that are not allowed to use JHPs or similar or are constrained to a pistol that cannot reliably feed a JHP or similar.
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.


If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.


In a military context, yes I'd have to agree. Those numbers make sense considering all of the carpet bombing that took place during that war. From a personal defense standpoint, I wanted to point out that the absolute lethality of 45 hard ball vs JHP is not in question (a well placed shot from either round will definitely stop any threat). The question I have is how many people actually carry hard ball? The ballistics gel testing I've seen on YouTube usually shows that 45acp JHP often does not expand the way it is "designed" to do so. Since I don't want to spend money practicing with JHP ammo, I'm wondering if anyone carries hard ball because I'm heavily considering (will) make the change.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.


If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.


In a military context, yes I'd have to agree. Those numbers make sense considering all of the carpet bombing that took place during that war. From a personal defense standpoint, I wanted to point out that the absolute lethality of 45 hard ball vs JHP is not in question (a well placed shot from either round will definitely stop any threat). The question I have is how many people actually carry hard ball? The ballistics gel testing I've seen on YouTube usually shows that 45acp JHP often does not expand the way it is "designed" to do so. Since I don't want to spend money practicing with JHP ammo, I'm wondering if anyone carries hard ball because I'm heavily considering (will) make the change.


I'd recommend checking out the vista outdoors LE ballistics page. Unlike alot of Youtubers, they actually used the proper calibrated ballistic gel and FBI/DOJ protocols. However, remember that while the Gel attests are based on the FBI's research across decades of shooting data, it is not a perfect predicator of what will happen in the real world.

What factors are you considering in your decision process?

Hardball does have a couple of pros to it. like reliability of feeding through most .45 acp handguns, Availability (you can buy it off the shelf in Academy, or on-line) and cost. There is also something to be said for having your target load being the same as your carry load.

However, You will be very hard pressed to find any LE agency carrying FMJ in any caliber as their duty round due to ricochet and overpenetration issues (real or imagined).
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.


If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.


In a military context, yes I'd have to agree. Those numbers make sense considering all of the carpet bombing that took place during that war. From a personal defense standpoint, I wanted to point out that the absolute lethality of 45 hard ball vs JHP is not in question (a well placed shot from either round will definitely stop any threat). The question I have is how many people actually carry hard ball? The ballistics gel testing I've seen on YouTube usually shows that 45acp JHP often does not expand the way it is "designed" to do so. Since I don't want to spend money practicing with JHP ammo, I'm wondering if anyone carries hard ball because I'm heavily considering (will) make the change.


I'd recommend checking out the vista outdoors LE ballistics page. Unlike alot of Youtubers, they actually used the proper calibrated ballistic gel and FBI/DOJ protocols. However, remember that while the Gel attests are based on the FBI's research across decades of shooting data, it is not a perfect predicator of what will happen in the real world.

What factors are you considering in your decision process?

Hardball does have a couple of pros to it. like reliability of feeding through most .45 acp handguns, Availability (you can buy it off the shelf in Academy, or on-line) and cost. There is also something to be said for having your target load being the same as your carry load.

However, You will be very hard pressed to find any LE agency carrying FMJ in any caliber as their duty round due to ricochet and overpenetration issues (real or imagined).


The main factors I'm considering are cost per round and point of impact when I'm at the range. The hard ball I use is Ammo Inc. 230gr FMJ .45acp. The JHP loads I use are SIG v-crown 230gr JHP. These two loads have a very different point of impact but I use them because they are the most cost effective. I don't like that I spend more time and money practicing with something that has a different point of impact than my carry ammo. This is why I have a hard time justifying carrying JHP.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Yes, although it's a common misconception, the handgun cartridge the Army went to in response to supposed poor stopping power of the previous one was the 45 Colt (also commonly misidentified as 45 "Long" Colt), not the 45 ACP.




7/93
 
Posts: 45883 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see where you are coming from.
See if you source speer lawman/GDHP or Federal AE/HST. Those are supposed to be matched. I use AE and lawman FMJ/TMJ as my practice rounds in 9mm and they are close enough that I am satisified.

I'd also tell you I'd prefer to work with someone who can put the rounds where it counts, even if that had a sub optimal pistol or sub-par ammo (as long as its reliable) than someone who can't hit but has the worlds best pistol and ammo. YMMV.
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Yes, although it's a common misconception, the handgun cartridge the Army went to in response to supposed poor stopping power of the previous one was the 45 Colt (also commonly misidentified as 45 "Long" Colt), not the 45 ACP.

IIRC the Army requested their Colt Single Action Army revolvers back.
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
I see where you are coming from.
See if you source speer lawman/GDHP or Federal AE/HST. Those are supposed to be matched. I use AE and lawman FMJ/TMJ as my practice rounds in 9mm and they are close enough that I am satisified.

I'd also tell you I'd prefer to work with someone who can put the rounds where it counts, even if that had a sub optimal pistol or sub-par ammo (as long as its reliable) than someone who can't hit but has the worlds best pistol and ammo. YMMV.


Can you explain which FMJ is matched with which JHP? I'm having a hard time telling by the way you phrased it. It would be immensely helpful thanks in advance.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I posted this recently in another thread:

This is what Speer advertises about its “Lawman” line of FMJ training ammunition:
“Offers the same feel and point of aim as comparable self-defense loads.”




7/93
 
Posts: 45883 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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