quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
They worked very well for American Soldiers during the Philippine–American War.

They also should be considered okay by those who say it isn't caliber, but bullet placement that counts.

I consider them okay for self defense, but carry HPs anyway, simply as something that makes me feel better.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
I shoot essentially nothing but FMJs but I'm a handloader and I load them up to where the point of impact is the same as the JHPs I carry (and Mrs. Flash carries).

You're not necessarily right about HPs not being available though, as I was casting them for my Mom, Dad, brother and me when I was 9 and that was the mid 1950s, so they were around, probably not in commercial form though.

The military has never used them, mainly because of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body, but the U.S. never signed that Convention, merely abided by it. However, the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering",

There was a prior prohibition, though, the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable.

quote:

Originally posted by josp:
I always recommend hollow points when they are available, but in 45 acp, hardball works just as well with minimal overpentration, if any at all.
I work forensics, so while see a lot of shootings, this information is far from scientific.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
.45 works fine with no expansion!

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.

If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.

If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.

In a military context, yes I'd have to agree. Those numbers make sense considering all of the carpet bombing that took place during that war. From a personal defense standpoint, I wanted to point out that the absolute lethality of 45 hard ball vs JHP is not in question (a well placed shot from either round will definitely stop any threat). The question I have is how many people actually carry hard ball? The ballistics gel testing I've seen on YouTube usually shows that 45acp JHP often does not expand the way it is "designed" to do so. Since I don't want to spend money practicing with JHP ammo, I'm wondering if anyone carries hard ball because I'm heavily considering (will) make the change.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Thank you for the clarification. I believe the 1911 was in service from 1911-1985 and still in service in some units after 1985. So, I think it is fair to say that the lethality of 230gr hardball is not in question but rather I'm wondering how many people actually carry hardball in their CCW.

If you read the US army Medical deparment's 1962 report on Wound Ballistics, all small arms combined only resulted in between 14%-30% of all fatalities in WW2, . So, I'd say in the military context the effectiveness of the .45 acp out of a 1911 is at best limited.

In a military context, yes I'd have to agree. Those numbers make sense considering all of the carpet bombing that took place during that war. From a personal defense standpoint, I wanted to point out that the absolute lethality of 45 hard ball vs JHP is not in question (a well placed shot from either round will definitely stop any threat). The question I have is how many people actually carry hard ball? The ballistics gel testing I've seen on YouTube usually shows that 45acp JHP often does not expand the way it is "designed" to do so. Since I don't want to spend money practicing with JHP ammo, I'm wondering if anyone carries hard ball because I'm heavily considering (will) make the change.

I'd recommend checking out the vista outdoors LE ballistics page. Unlike alot of Youtubers, they actually used the proper calibrated ballistic gel and FBI/DOJ protocols. However, remember that while the Gel attests are based on the FBI's research across decades of shooting data, it is not a perfect predicator of what will happen in the real world.

What factors are you considering in your decision process?

Hardball does have a couple of pros to it. like reliability of feeding through most .45 acp handguns, Availability (you can buy it off the shelf in Academy, or on-line) and cost. There is also something to be said for having your target load being the same as your carry load.

However, You will be very hard pressed to find any LE agency carrying FMJ in any caliber as their duty round due to ricochet and overpenetration issues (real or imagined).

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Yes, although it's a common misconception, the handgun cartridge the Army went to in response to supposed poor stopping power of the previous one was the 45 Colt (also commonly misidentified as 45 "Long" Colt), not the 45 ACP.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
I see where you are coming from.
See if you source speer lawman/GDHP or Federal AE/HST. Those are supposed to be matched. I use AE and lawman FMJ/TMJ as my practice rounds in 9mm and they are close enough that I am satisified.

I'd also tell you I'd prefer to work with someone who can put the rounds where it counts, even if that had a sub optimal pistol or sub-par ammo (as long as its reliable) than someone who can't hit but has the worlds best pistol and ammo. YMMV.