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Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Here's the graph from Lucky gunner website.
Seems the Sig failed to expand.




https://www.luckygunner.com/la...mmo-ballistic-tests/


Yeah that 200gr JHP goes a lot faster out the muzzle than the 230gr JHP I get from them so they're less likely to expand. I've seen several ppl on YouTube try the 230gr and it works fine. I have this article for reference on 230gr V-Crown

https://www.gunsamerica.com/di...p-230-grain-v-crown/


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


Yes, although it's a common misconception, the handgun cartridge the Army went to in response to supposed poor stopping power of the previous one was the 45 Colt (also commonly misidentified as 45 "Long" Colt), not the 45 ACP.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this Fudd lore about the Moro Warriors, stopping power, and why 45ACP is superior while 9mm Lugar is inadequate. Roll Eyes

The .45 they used back then was .45 Colt. The 9mm they used back then was .38 Long Colt. They're completely different loadings than 45ACP & 9x19mm.
 
Posts: 2725 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gents,

Reliability of your pistol is paramount, as is bullet placement. That said the 230 grain "ball" is an OK defensive round, IMHO. Still, I use Winchester Ranger SXT hollow points in my carry 1911's as I believe it may give a small added advantage.

Wes
 
Posts: 2229 | Location: Salem, OR | Registered: May 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Weshowe:
Gents,

Reliability of your pistol is paramount, as is bullet placement. That said the 230 grain "ball" is an OK defensive round, IMHO. Still, I use Winchester Ranger SXT hollow points in my carry 1911's as I believe it may give a small added advantage.

Wes


Agreed. If I ever have to carry FMJ I will do so without skipping a beat. How it will hold up in court after a self-defense use of a firearm, however, I do not know. Would it make a difference to a judge / jury?


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Flash-LB:
I shoot essentially nothing but FMJs but I'm a handloader and I load them up to where the point of impact is the same as the JHPs I carry (and Mrs. Flash carries).

You're not necessarily right about HPs not being available though, as I was casting them for my Mom, Dad, brother and me when I was 9 and that was the mid 1950s, so they were around, probably not in commercial form though.

The military has never used them, mainly because of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body, but the U.S. never signed that Convention, merely abided by it. However, the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering",

There was a prior prohibition, though, the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable.


It appeared we abided by it, but the reality is no, we didn't. The FMJ offers more penetration thru hard objects that people hide behind - and it's why we use steel penetrator bullets in the 5.56, too. We were never signatory to it, nobody in US ammo development kept referring to it introducing new rounds.

JAG researched and made a legal declaration in the 1980s that open tip was acceptable under the conventions. We'd already been using Sierra hollowpoints in .308's for sniper use. Since the 80's, their hasn't been a lot of developement of .45ACP as it was passed over for military use by 9mm - and 9mm round nose FMJ wasn't then and still isn't considered a good performer. A lot of work went into getting HP's to work better and over the last 40 years a lot of that research was applied to .45, too.

What round nose FMJ is, is cheap - since the spec was turn of the century with no update, it remained. That legacy remained because the Army had no real reason to make it better - pistols aren't primary combat weapons for most officers in a conflict zone, even the MP's resort to long arms there, too. It's a badge of authority for the most part in the military.

A lot of the current HP research came from an FBI shootout and the protocol adopted from it - which includes shooting thru car doors, windshields, etc. They prefer up to 18" penetration - which for the normal non obese human is a thru and thru. The HP concept is to expand and stop, dissapating all the energy. For police and civilian use, it's a better choice than round nose FMJ clanging around down range richocheting around in a public setting.

I just load Hornady American Gunner for my .45 - it's available, relatively inexpensive and is the result of 40 years of derivative improvements known to work for what was the puny 9mm in the day.
 
Posts: 613 | Registered: December 14, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by mipistola45:
Agreed. If I ever have to carry FMJ I will do so without skipping a beat. How it will hold up in court after a self-defense use of a firearm, however, I do not know. Would it make a difference to a judge / jury?

If you've gone trial, the prosecution will throw every argument they can at the jury wall to see what sticks. If you used FMJ, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better penetration) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used JHP, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better expansion) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used 45ACP over 9mm or 380ACP, they will argue that it's more dangerous and evidence of you being bloodthirsty.

There are some jurisdictions where hollow-point ammo is not legal for regular, non-LE citizens to use. In that case, you will be in trouble for using HP over FMJ.
 
Posts: 2725 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Tirod:
- which for the normal non obese human is a thru and thru.

Through x2? Were they shot twice?
 
Posts: 10012 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by iron chef:
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Originally posted by mipistola45:
Agreed. If I ever have to carry FMJ I will do so without skipping a beat. How it will hold up in court after a self-defense use of a firearm, however, I do not know. Would it make a difference to a judge / jury?

If you've gone trial, the prosecution will throw every argument they can at the jury wall to see what sticks. If you used FMJ, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better penetration) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used JHP, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better expansion) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used 45ACP over 9mm or 380ACP, they will argue that it's more dangerous and evidence of you being bloodthirsty.

There are some jurisdictions where hollow-point ammo is not legal for regular, non-LE citizens to use. In that case, you will be in trouble for using HP over FMJ.


Seems like there is very little room for justifiable self defense use of a firearm once it goes to court. Would you happen to know of any database of self defense firearm use court rulings?


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by mipistola45:
Seems like there is very little room for justifiable self defense use of a firearm once it goes to court.

There are many, many variables if a case goes to criminal trial. Generally prosecutors don't take cases to trial unless they feel confident they can win them. Occasionally they will try a not-so-good case due to political pressure. The "Hands up, don't shoot" Michael Brown shooting case didn't make it to trial, but the prosecution spent three months trying to convince a grand jury to indict Darren Wilson. Kyle Rittenhouse and George Zimmerman were two of the most high profile cases in recent years that went to trial even though the prosecutors had lousy cases.

Regardless of how good your case is as a defendant, if it goes to trial, you and your legal counsel have a lot of work ahead of you.



quote:
Would you happen to know of any database of self defense firearm use court rulings?

LexisNexis is a search engine for legal professionals, though it requires a subscription.

The NRA or their American Rifleman might have a compendium of armed SD court rulings.
 
Posts: 2725 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In my USMC days in decades past I had limited experience with the 1911A1. The 230Gr-FMJ was effective in my limited experience.
 
Posts: 997 | Registered: October 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For concerns about suboptimum penetration with HPs, just buy regular old Hornady XTP Bullet ammo, or that specific XTP bullet loaded by another manufacturer. Example in point: the XTP bullet is the ONLY hollow point in 380 ACP that has enough penetration via FBI penetration stds. My take is the same works for other calibers with the same concern about penetration. Sure, the HST bullet won't flower as wide or pretty as a more expensive HP defense round, but if the pill can't reach the important stuff for stopping an unlawful lethal attack, then a prettier flower won't be as helpful as an XTP. It's an old HP design for sure, but you have to ask yourself a question: Why do ALL handgun hunting ammunition manufacturers load the XTP bullet exclusively as far as jacketed HPs go. For bigger requirements, there are other variations using various lead alloys and bullet configs, but that's not a valid comparison for the purposes of this thread. But given those two reasons, the answer is clear to me, since I like to carry 380 acp, aka 9mm Browning, 9x17, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short. Same argument goes for the 9x18. 9mm (9x19) is the least ammo suitable for HP defense against two legged predators imho. I think 357 Sig has the same problem, the excellent energy is wasted on pretty or broken flowers that open up too fast before the pills get where they need to go. Sometimes velocity is your enemy when it comes to expensive defense HP ammunition. It makes you wonder if the defense ammo manufacturers are more interested in pretty flowers than getting the job done. So basic physics seems to favor XTP pills for better penetration as velocity increases if you have concerns about the pen for specific HPs.

Regarding 45 ACP hardball ammo, I don't know if it's true that a 45 cal round nose hardball will stop slower but kill quicker is true, but if it is, I'll take the HP other things being equal.




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Posts: 7632 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by wrightd:
For concerns about suboptimum penetration with HPs, just buy regular old Hornady XTP Bullet ammo, or that specific XTP bullet loaded by another manufacturer. Example in point: the XTP bullet is the ONLY hollow point in 380 ACP that has enough penetration via FBI penetration stds. My take is the same works for other calibers with the same concern about penetration. Sure, the HST bullet won't flower as wide or pretty as a more expensive HP defense round, but if the pill can't reach the important stuff for stopping an unlawful lethal attack, then a prettier flower won't be as helpful as an XTP. It's an old HP design for sure, but you have to ask yourself a question: Why do ALL handgun hunting ammunition manufacturers load the XTP bullet exclusively as far as jacketed HPs go. For bigger requirements, there are other variations using various lead alloys and bullet configs, but that's not a valid comparison for the purposes of this thread. But given those two reasons, the answer is clear to me, since I like to carry 380 acp, aka 9mm Browning, 9x17, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short. Same argument goes for the 9x18. 9mm (9x19) is the least ammo suitable for HP defense against two legged predators imho. I think 357 Sig has the same problem, the excellent energy is wasted on pretty or broken flowers that open up too fast before the pills get where they need to go. Sometimes velocity is your enemy when it comes to expensive defense HP ammunition. It makes you wonder if the defense ammo manufacturers are more interested in pretty flowers than getting the job done. So basic physics seems to favor XTP pills for better penetration as velocity increases if you have concerns about the pen for specific HPs.

Regarding 45 ACP hardball ammo, I don't know if it's true that a 45 cal round nose hardball will stop slower but kill quicker is true, but if it is, I'll take the HP other things being equal.


I have yet to find any XTP or HST in .380acp; so far I've been limited to some American-made 100gr TMC that should get the job done. Thank you for the insight.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Reliability of your pistol is paramount, as is bullet placement. This can’t be emphasized enough.
 
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They may not all “fall to hardball” but shot #2 and 3 if needed most likely will end the hostilities
 
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It's better than using the gun as a club or throwing object, but why not use a hollow-point (provided it feeds in your gun, this is paramount) and take every advantage you can get? On the plus side, I wouldn't expect it to have the through-and-through penetration problems of 9mm FMJ.
 
Posts: 25958 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Ryanp225:
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Originally posted by Tirod:
- which for the normal non obese human is a thru and thru.

Through x2? Were they shot twice?


Through and through means it went through the skin in front, then it went through the skin in back and continued on its merry way.

Essentially it means the bullet didn't stay in the body.
 
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