quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Here's the graph from Lucky gunner website.
Seems the Sig failed to expand.




https://www.luckygunner.com/la...mmo-ballistic-tests/

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.

Yes, although it's a common misconception, the handgun cartridge the Army went to in response to supposed poor stopping power of the previous one was the 45 Colt (also commonly misidentified as 45 "Long" Colt), not the 45 ACP.

quote:

Originally posted by Weshowe:
Gents,

Reliability of your pistol is paramount, as is bullet placement. That said the 230 grain "ball" is an OK defensive round, IMHO. Still, I use Winchester Ranger SXT hollow points in my carry 1911's as I believe it may give a small added advantage.

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
I shoot essentially nothing but FMJs but I'm a handloader and I load them up to where the point of impact is the same as the JHPs I carry (and Mrs. Flash carries).

You're not necessarily right about HPs not being available though, as I was casting them for my Mom, Dad, brother and me when I was 9 and that was the mid 1950s, so they were around, probably not in commercial form though.

The military has never used them, mainly because of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body, but the U.S. never signed that Convention, merely abided by it. However, the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering",

There was a prior prohibition, though, the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, along with weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable.

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Originally posted by mipistola45:
Agreed. If I ever have to carry FMJ I will do so without skipping a beat. How it will hold up in court after a self-defense use of a firearm, however, I do not know. Would it make a difference to a judge / jury?

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
- which for the normal non obese human is a thru and thru.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

quote:

Originally posted by mipistola45:
Agreed. If I ever have to carry FMJ I will do so without skipping a beat. How it will hold up in court after a self-defense use of a firearm, however, I do not know. Would it make a difference to a judge / jury?

If you've gone trial, the prosecution will throw every argument they can at the jury wall to see what sticks. If you used FMJ, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better penetration) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used JHP, they will argue that it's more dangerous (e.g., better expansion) and evidence of you being bloodthirsty. If you used 45ACP over 9mm or 380ACP, they will argue that it's more dangerous and evidence of you being bloodthirsty.

There are some jurisdictions where hollow-point ammo is not legal for regular, non-LE citizens to use. In that case, you will be in trouble for using HP over FMJ.

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Originally posted by mipistola45:
Seems like there is very little room for justifiable self defense use of a firearm once it goes to court.

quote:

Would you happen to know of any database of self defense firearm use court rulings?

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Originally posted by wrightd:
For concerns about suboptimum penetration with HPs, just buy regular old Hornady XTP Bullet ammo, or that specific XTP bullet loaded by another manufacturer. Example in point: the XTP bullet is the ONLY hollow point in 380 ACP that has enough penetration via FBI penetration stds. My take is the same works for other calibers with the same concern about penetration. Sure, the HST bullet won't flower as wide or pretty as a more expensive HP defense round, but if the pill can't reach the important stuff for stopping an unlawful lethal attack, then a prettier flower won't be as helpful as an XTP. It's an old HP design for sure, but you have to ask yourself a question: Why do ALL handgun hunting ammunition manufacturers load the XTP bullet exclusively as far as jacketed HPs go. For bigger requirements, there are other variations using various lead alloys and bullet configs, but that's not a valid comparison for the purposes of this thread. But given those two reasons, the answer is clear to me, since I like to carry 380 acp, aka 9mm Browning, 9x17, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short. Same argument goes for the 9x18. 9mm (9x19) is the least ammo suitable for HP defense against two legged predators imho. I think 357 Sig has the same problem, the excellent energy is wasted on pretty or broken flowers that open up too fast before the pills get where they need to go. Sometimes velocity is your enemy when it comes to expensive defense HP ammunition. It makes you wonder if the defense ammo manufacturers are more interested in pretty flowers than getting the job done. So basic physics seems to favor XTP pills for better penetration as velocity increases if you have concerns about the pen for specific HPs.

Regarding 45 ACP hardball ammo, I don't know if it's true that a 45 cal round nose hardball will stop slower but kill quicker is true, but if it is, I'll take the HP other things being equal.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
- which for the normal non obese human is a thru and thru.

Through x2? Were they shot twice?