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I Deal In Lead
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
IIRC The Philippine American war ended in 1902, before the adoption of the 1911.


You're right. It's amazing how much bad info can be found on the net.

The .38s the Army had weren't working, so some officers used the .45 Colt, which is probably what convinced the Army to adopt the 1911.
 
Posts: 9636 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
I see where you are coming from.
See if you source speer lawman/GDHP or Federal AE/HST. Those are supposed to be matched. I use AE and lawman FMJ/TMJ as my practice rounds in 9mm and they are close enough that I am satisified.

I'd also tell you I'd prefer to work with someone who can put the rounds where it counts, even if that had a sub optimal pistol or sub-par ammo (as long as its reliable) than someone who can't hit but has the worlds best pistol and ammo. YMMV.


Can you explain which FMJ is matched with which JHP? I'm having a hard time telling by the way you phrased it. It would be immensely helpful thanks in advance.


Sure, I'll focus on lawman and gold dot.

head over to Vista Outdoors LE Site. Use the comparison tool and compare load 53653, the 230 grain TMJ Lawman load and load 53966 the Gold Dot 230 GR JHP. they have similar muzzle velocity 830 vs 890, similar ballisitc coeeffients and per the web site at 50 yoards their poi is .40 inches apart. Meaning that you should expect them to perform fairly similarly in your pistol. Of course that is the manufacturers data and a 5 imch test barrell. Your actual performance can vary due to a number of factors. Best bet, buy a box of each and try it.

Per Speer "Speer® LE Lawman® delivers all the performance of premium ammunition for a fraction of the cost".
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
I see where you are coming from.
See if you source speer lawman/GDHP or Federal AE/HST. Those are supposed to be matched. I use AE and lawman FMJ/TMJ as my practice rounds in 9mm and they are close enough that I am satisified.

I'd also tell you I'd prefer to work with someone who can put the rounds where it counts, even if that had a sub optimal pistol or sub-par ammo (as long as its reliable) than someone who can't hit but has the worlds best pistol and ammo. YMMV.


Can you explain which FMJ is matched with which JHP? I'm having a hard time telling by the way you phrased it. It would be immensely helpful thanks in advance.


Sure, I'll focus on lawman and gold dot.

head over to Vista Outdoors LE Site. Use the comparison tool and compare load 53653, the 230 grain TMJ Lawman load and load 53966 the Gold Dot 230 GR JHP. they have similar muzzle velocity 830 vs 890, similar ballisitc coeeffients and per the web site at 50 yoards their poi is .40 inches apart. Meaning that you should expect them to perform fairly similarly in your pistol. Of course that is the manufacturers data and a 5 imch test barrell. Your actual performance can vary due to a number of factors. Best bet, buy a box of each and try it.

Per Speer "Speer® LE Lawman® delivers all the performance of premium ammunition for a fraction of the cost".


Thank you sir this insight is invaluable. There's a few ranges I can go look for this stuff; I haven't seen Speer where I actually shoot.

This is what I practice with at the range:
Ammo Inc 230gr .45acp TMJ
https://ammoinc.com/product/ammo-inc-45-auto-230-gr/

It is more comparable to the Speer GDHP according to the specs; 890fps muzzle velocity and 230gr bullet weight.

However, the actual ammo I carry is the Sig V-Crown 230gr .45acp which has a muzzle velocity of 830fps.

According to your suggestion (GDHP 890fps 230gr vs TMJ RN 830fps 230gr), the Sig V-Crown should perform similarly to the Ammo Inc stuff I mentioned above (890fps 230gr Ammo Inc vs 830fps 230gr Sig V-Crown) albeit the faster round that I practice with is not what I carry contrary to your advice which has the GDHP at a higher muzzle velocity. "Conceptually"the ammo is very much comparable. Do you have any experience with Speer GDHP & TMJ RN? My experience with the cartridges I mentioned above are that the V-Crown have a point of impact of about .5in to 1in lower at 10yds at the same point of aim. The Sig P220 sights I use put the dot where I want the bullet to hit; this works for the Ammo Inc stuff but as I just stated the V-Crown shoots .5in low at the same point of aim.

I would love to know what you think.

Best Regards,


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The only non HP caliber I am comfortable carrying is 45ACP Ball. Hard to fault the military experience with it. My current carry is a 220 with Federal 230gr non +P HST in the gun and ball ammo in my backup magazine.


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Posts: 14007 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the insight. I read on another thread a man who saw combat (and engaged in combat) during the Vietnam war. He recounted events that demonstrated the effectiveness of .45acp hard ball; he pointed out that the "advantages" of JHP, lighter bullets, higher velocity, etc are marginal at best.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:


It is more comparable to the Speer GDHP according to the specs; 890fps muzzle velocity and 230gr bullet weight.

According to your suggestion (GDHP 890fps 230gr vs TMJ RN 830fps 230gr), the Sig V-Crown should perform similarly to the Ammo Inc stuff I mentioned above (890fps 230gr Ammo Inc vs 830fps 230gr Sig V-Crown) albeit the faster round that I practice with is not what I carry contrary to your advice which has the GDHP at a higher muzzle velocity. "Conceptually"the ammo is very much comparable. Do you have any experience with Speer GDHP & TMJ RN? My experience with the cartridges I mentioned above are that the V-Crown have a point of impact of about .5in to 1in lower at 10yds at the same point of aim. The Sig P220 sights I use put the dot where I want the bullet to hit; this works for the Ammo Inc stuff but as I just stated the V-Crown shoots .5in low at the same point of aim.

I would love to know what you think.

Best Regards,


I use gold dot and lawman (and american eagle) in my 9mm, as mentioned above.

I use .45 Lawman in my S&W 1911E. It's functioned fine. I don't use a .45 as carry gun so I don't have real world data on JHPs through it.
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by mipistola45:


It is more comparable to the Speer GDHP according to the specs; 890fps muzzle velocity and 230gr bullet weight.

According to your suggestion (GDHP 890fps 230gr vs TMJ RN 830fps 230gr), the Sig V-Crown should perform similarly to the Ammo Inc stuff I mentioned above (890fps 230gr Ammo Inc vs 830fps 230gr Sig V-Crown) albeit the faster round that I practice with is not what I carry contrary to your advice which has the GDHP at a higher muzzle velocity. "Conceptually"the ammo is very much comparable. Do you have any experience with Speer GDHP & TMJ RN? My experience with the cartridges I mentioned above are that the V-Crown have a point of impact of about .5in to 1in lower at 10yds at the same point of aim. The Sig P220 sights I use put the dot where I want the bullet to hit; this works for the Ammo Inc stuff but as I just stated the V-Crown shoots .5in low at the same point of aim.

I would love to know what you think.

Best Regards,


I use gold dot and lawman (and american eagle) in my 9mm, as mentioned above.

I use .45 Lawman in my S&W 1911E. It's functioned fine. I don't use a .45 as carry gun so I don't have real world data on JHPs through it.


I wonder what (if any) the difference in point of impact is for the combination of .45acp you mentioned versus the combinations for training and carry that I use are. Again thank you for the insight if I come across any of the ammo you mentioned this weekend at the range I'll let you know how it goes. Whatever I find out might be useful to somebody that comes across this thread, I can't be the only one that has been wondering about this stuff.

Best,


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
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Couple of things…

1. Take a look at this video..in it the speaker explains that statistically one round (handgun) doesn’t far exceed any other

https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc


2. Check out the labs that lucky Gunner did with a bunch of ammo. I was disappointed that FMJ wasn’t included just as a comparison.

https://www.luckygunner.com/la...llistic-tests/#45ACP

3. I’m a retired cop, and I was a firearms instructor while in the USCG, I taught for 16 of my 20 year career. Spanning the 1911 (45), M9(9mm9 & SIG P229DAK (40 S&W). I’ve shot deer with just about every pistol/rifle caliber I could try(38,357,44,45LC,45ACP,& more) In my opinion, I’d carry a JHP in any caliber when possibly having to shoot humans, but hard cast or FMJ when dealing with hogs, bears, other big tough animals that take penetrating.

I’m waiting on a Dan Wesson Vigil to come in, and I intend to carry Speer Gold Dots in 230 because I know they work. I currently carry a G43X with 124grain SGDs… I’m sold on the SGD-I used them in my police career, but I don’t discount several other brands. As Lucky Gunner has displayed even the Remington Golden Saber works as advertised, and they aren’t too expensive.



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Posts: 9986 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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While I prefer 200- or 230-grain JHPs as a carry load for my 1911s, I have carried 230-grain FMJ before and would not hesitate to do so again.



"The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli." - George Costanza
 
Posts: 6492 | Registered: September 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
Couple of things…

1. Take a look at this video..in it the speaker explains that statistically one round (handgun) doesn’t far exceed any other

https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc


2. Check out the labs that lucky Gunner did with a bunch of ammo. I was disappointed that FMJ wasn’t included just as a comparison.

https://www.luckygunner.com/la...llistic-tests/#45ACP

3. I’m a retired cop, and I was a firearms instructor while in the USCG, I taught for 16 of my 20 year career. Spanning the 1911 (45), M9(9mm9 & SIG P229DAK (40 S&W). I’ve shot deer with just about every pistol/rifle caliber I could try(38,357,44,45LC,45ACP,& more) In my opinion, I’d carry a JHP in any caliber when possibly having to shoot humans, but hard cast or FMJ when dealing with hogs, bears, other big tough animals that take penetrating.

I’m waiting on a Dan Wesson Vigil to come in, and I intend to carry Speer Gold Dots in 230 because I know they work. I currently carry a G43X with 124grain SGDs… I’m sold on the SGD-I used them in my police career, but I don’t discount several other brands. As Lucky Gunner has displayed even the Remington Golden Saber works as advertised, and they aren’t too expensive.


Thanks for the information and thank you for your service! With regard to actual choice of caliber, I went with .45acp because I found it a lot more enjoyable to shoot than the 9mm and 10mm. I've shot both 9mm and 10mm out of different platforms (mostly Glocks and 1911 style pistols). I found that I am a lot better shot with the .45acp (9mm and 10mm have a "snappy" recoil impulse that I did not enjoy at all while the .45acp is more of a "push"). I posed the question of carrying FMJ over JHP because I can practice twice as many shots for less than what a box of 20rds JHP costs. On top of that, despite comparable bullet weights and muzzle velocity, for me, FMJ and JHP have a different point of impact out of my p220, so I am trying to decide if carrying what I am more proficient in (FMJ) is the right choice to make. I would rather use 1-2 FMJ well-placed shots to stop a threat rather than 3-4 JHP. At 7-10yds, the point of impact for JHP is about .5in to 1in lower when I use the same point of aim as the FMJ ammo I practice with. Is this difference in point of impact significant? It could be the difference between stopping a threat with the first round versus the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. SGDHP might be the ammo that has the same point of impact as the FMJ I use, so I'll definitely keep an eye out for that.

Best,


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by TheFrontRange:
While I prefer 200- or 230-grain JHPs as a carry load for my 1911s, I have carried 230-grain FMJ before and would not hesitate to do so again.


My thoughts exactly. Especially in this day and age with the volatile economy, every shot you practice with counts. I get more bang for buck with FMJ, which means more proficiency.

Best,


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I’d carry 230gr fmj if it was all that was available. I would carry almost any jhp over fmj because even if it fails to expand it will still perform as well as fmj. Quality jhp loadings (HST for example) consistently expand even through heavy clothing from compact firearms. 99% of my 45 is shot through a full size 1911. It’s not a caliber particularly forgiving of very short (3 inch) barrels, but I have other guns in other calibers to fill that niche.
 
Posts: 2404 | Registered: November 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by copaup:
I’d carry 230gr fmj if it was all that was available. I would carry almost any jhp over fmj because even if it fails to expand it will still perform as well as fmj. Quality jhp loadings (HST for example) consistently expand even through heavy clothing from compact firearms. 99% of my 45 is shot through a full size 1911. It’s not a caliber particularly forgiving of very short (3 inch) barrels, but I have other guns in other calibers to fill that niche.


The only consistently available self defense loads at my LGS are SIG 230gr V-Crown so I've been using that. They sometimes have the Hornady critical defense but I haven't heard good things about that load in .45acp, and the Sig load is always several bucks cheaper with very positives reviews online. Many ppl on the forum mention Sit V-Crown, Federal HST and Speer Good Dot. I have yet to see anybody mention they carry Hornady critical defense


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If I had no other choice but to carry FMJ I would prefer .40 or .45. The size of .45 and the flattish nose of .40 would make me feel better.

That said there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I wouldn’t be using a JHP round of any kind unless there was absolutely no recourse more for an over penetration fear then anything else.

In .45 I have had great luck with Speer Gold Dot. I really like HST and Gold Dot in general but in .45 I prefer Gold Dot.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 6684 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by cslinger:
If I had no other choice but to carry FMJ I would prefer .40 or .45. The size of .45 and the flattish nose of .40 would make me feel better.

That said there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I wouldn’t be using a JHP round of any kind unless there was absolutely no recourse more for an over penetration fear then anything else.

In .45 I have had great luck with Speer Gold Dot. I really like HST and Gold Dot in general but in .45 I prefer Gold Dot.


I've been reading a lot of good things about gold dot. Unfortunately I haven't been able to source any. For now I still use Sig 230gr V-Crown. I have to do some research about 45acp over penetration


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've been reading a lot of good things about gold dot. Unfortunately I haven't been able to source any. For now I still use Sig 230gr V-Crown. I have to do some research about 45acp over penetration


Check some of the online ammo vendors. some of them might not ship to you due to your location, but Targetsports USa might (they shipped to me in NY).

Also use the the notify me option, choice ammo tends to sell out quick.

For alternates to Gold Dot, I'd look at Federal HST, Winchester Ranger or Hornady Critical Duty. They have all had LE Contracts (usually in 9MM or .40).
 
Posts: 4409 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
I've been reading a lot of good things about gold dot. Unfortunately I haven't been able to source any. For now I still use Sig 230gr V-Crown. I have to do some research about 45acp over penetration


Check some of the online ammo vendors. some of them might not ship to you due to your location, but Targetsports USa might (they shipped to me in NY).

Also use the the notify me option, choice ammo tends to sell out quick.

For alternates to Gold Dot, I'd look at Federal HST, Winchester Ranger or Hornady Critical Duty. They have all had LE Contracts (usually in 9MM or .40).


Do you have any experience with Sig V-Crown? The only reason I even tried it is because it's the ammo that Sig recommends using in their pistols. I went to the range today and I noticed the point of impact difference I was referring to earlier on this thread is not greater. than 5 inches; I think its only actually within those .5 inches at most. I think as I get used to the difference in velocity (approx. 60fps slower than the FMJ I practice with) I'll manage to compensate with my point of aim (if needed). I mainly started this thread to see who is actually carrying FMJ because to me it seems difficult to find a combination of FMJ and JHP that has the same point of impact. I am not content with being more proficient with a certain type of ammo over the ammo I actually carry (due to the fact that I get twice as many rounds of FMJ for the same price as a box of JHP).

On a side note, Hornady Critical Duty is advertised as a +P load with the ability to penetrate through car doors and still expand. Many people have expressed their fear of over penetration in a self-defense situation. Is Critical Duty ideal to carry outside of a LE use context?

Thank you for the insight.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You mean SIG recommends SIG Ammo for SIG guns!!!! The hell you say. Smile Wink

Seriously though I wouldn’t worry about VCrown at all. SIG seems to make decent ammo.

In .45 I also like Golden Saber.

That said don’t get hung up on a particular wunderammo. As long as it functions reliably in your gun and is not some boutique scary named ammo ala RIP the like it will be fine.

Even the BEST ammo has its fair share of failures to expand etc. and NONE OF IT is likely a magical one shot stop.

Cliff notes. Find any decent normal brand of defensive ammo. Run 25-100 or so to make sure it works with your gun and magazines and that you can hit what you are aiming at with it and be happy. I like HST, Gold Dots and Golden Sabers in .45 because that is what I have the most experience with and the most down various pipes to confirm reliability, not because of some mythical capability. If you told me I could use nothing but SIG VCrown hollow points I’d lose exactly no minutes of sleep over it assuming I could verify function and point of impact.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 6684 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
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Here's the graph from Lucky gunner website.
Seems the Sig failed to expand.




https://www.luckygunner.com/la...mmo-ballistic-tests/
 
Posts: 10012 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by cslinger:
You mean SIG recommends SIG Ammo for SIG guns!!!! The hell you say. Smile Wink

Seriously though I wouldn’t worry about VCrown at all. SIG seems to make decent ammo.

In .45 I also like Golden Saber.

That said don’t get hung up on a particular wunderammo. As long as it functions reliably in your gun and is not some boutique scary named ammo ala RIP the like it will be fine.

Even the BEST ammo has its fair share of failures to expand etc. and NONE OF IT is likely a magical one shot stop.

Cliff notes. Find any decent normal brand of defensive ammo. Run 25-100 or so to make sure it works with your gun and magazines and that you can hit what you are aiming at with it and be happy. I like HST, Gold Dots and Golden Sabers in .45 because that is what I have the most experience with and the most down various pipes to confirm reliability, not because of some mythical capability. If you told me I could use nothing but SIG VCrown hollow points I’d lose exactly no minutes of sleep over it assuming I could verify function and point of impact.


You've made some very salient points thank you. I think the ammo I'm using now hits the sweet spot with price, accuracy, and effectiveness.


mi45acp
 
Posts: 72 | Location: Chicagoland | Registered: March 19, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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