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Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:


As for jhe’s comment about enjoying it for what it is, well for fucks sake this isn’t a dime store novel. If you take the Bible and just reinvent it you are going to get pushback. There are certain books that carry a similar weight and respect. Tolkien certainly is one of those. While you can play hell with it, you probably shouldn’t.


Tolkien has the same weight and cultural importance as the Bible? I don't think you meant that, but it isn't even close. You can re-imagine Tolkien, it isn't blasphemy. You may fall short, because people will compare, but . . .




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 51787 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
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quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:


As for jhe’s comment about enjoying it for what it is, well for fucks sake this isn’t a dime store novel. If you take the Bible and just reinvent it you are going to get pushback. There are certain books that carry a similar weight and respect. Tolkien certainly is one of those. While you can play hell with it, you probably shouldn’t.


Tolkien has the same weight and cultural importance as the Bible? I don't think you meant that, but it isn't even close. You can re-imagine Tolkien, it isn't blasphemy. You may fall short, because people will compare, but . . .


We are talking about a guy who is upset the lead isn't a white guy, women aren't eyecandy/sex objects, and minorities aren't sidekicks or villians. Since these criteria are not met, then it must be WOKE! Roll Eyes

As for the Bible, remind me again when white people show up in it?? Isn't it the Romans in Judea during Jesus's life? And the Romans's don't come off very well...


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24486 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Blasphemy? I don't think I said that. I said certain books have a similar weight and respect. You can re imagine the Bible, people do it all the time. Hell, most churches do it as we speak.

Certain books have earned the right to being classics, to owning the space in which they exist. Tolkien is one of those. If you want to re imagine it, then change the names and steal the ideas. Keeping the same characters and just changing large chunks of the story are going to get you well deserved backlash.

I suspect you understand all that. Yes the Bible holds the undisputed title of The Book of All Time. There are other books that mankind has written that deserve to be up there though. If you doubt that then I guess all agnostics and atheists just get to eat shit.
 
Posts: 5426 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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In terms of importance to the fantasy genre, and writing far beyond that, Tolkien’s works may as well be considered the Bible. His impact was profound. Fucking with his works for the sake of advancing a social agenda is, yes, tantamount to heresy. There, I said it.

That said, I’ve re-watched the three Jackson films over the last week or so. I was watching in the context of what would a casual viewer of these films expect if they were made today, and sadly, my conclusion was that they would say they should be more like the shit being produced by Amazon. Yes, Arwen and Eowyn presented strong female characters who were brave and capable. Eowyn defeats the Witch King of Angmar. They did show Merry piercing his calf with a short sword before she deals the death blow, but they didn’t explain where the sword came from and why it undid him. To a casual viewer, Merry just helped get him down to his knees, rather than basically unwittingly killing him outright with a sword enchanted to do exactly that to the exact person it eventually got used on. So, while Tolkien wrote strong women, especially in LOTR, Jackson did take it a bit further. I’m sure with a quick google search, I could find several treatises on how Jackson “didn’t go far enough” and should have made Aragorn a gender non-binary mixed race Xe and all the rest of the fellowship should have been women, and all the films should have used gender-neutral language or some shit.

Irishwind, I have the same complaints Pedro has, and I would say your last post is an entirely unfair characterization. That isn’t at all my problem or what I want to see on screen. My issue lies in the fact that it’s a gotcha game. You either accept or champion this level of “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” or you’re all the things you just accused Pedro of, stopping just shy of calling him a racist and a sexist, where he and I have a problem rooted in the fact that Tolkien’s works are being used as a vehicle for a social agenda, as is everything today. By playing the game by their rules, we lose. I’m not playing. I fucking hate being socially engineered. I refuse to accept it, and whatever the consequences, so be it.

Let’s see what today’s episode brings. I think moving forward, I’ll withhold my thoughts for bit until others have posted. If we’re in for fifty fucking episodes, I don’t want to burn this out in three or four pages of debate.


______________________________________________
I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
In terms of importance to the fantasy genre, and writing far beyond that, Tolkien’s works may as well be considered the Bible. His impact was profound. Fucking with his works for the sake of advancing a social agenda is, yes, tantamount to heresy. There, I said it.

That said, I’ve re-watched the three Jackson films over the last week or so. I was watching in the context of what would a casual viewer of these films expect if they were made today, and sadly, my conclusion was that they would say they should be more like the shit being produced by Amazon. Yes, Arwen and Eowyn presented strong female characters who were brave and capable. Eowyn defeats the Witch King of Angmar. They did show Merry piercing his calf with a short sword before she deals the death blow, but they didn’t explain where the sword came from and why it undid him. To a casual viewer, Merry just helped get him down to his knees, rather than basically unwittingly killing him outright with a sword enchanted to do exactly that to the exact person it eventually got used on. So, while Tolkien wrote strong women, especially in LOTR, Jackson did take it a bit further. I’m sure with a quick google search, I could find several treatises on how Jackson “didn’t go far enough” and should have made Aragorn a gender non-binary mixed race Xe and all the rest of the fellowship should have been women, and all the films should have used gender-neutral language or some shit.

Irishwind, I have the same complaints Pedro has, and I would say your last post is an entirely unfair characterization. That isn’t at all my problem or what I want to see on screen. My issue lies in the fact that it’s a gotcha game. You either accept or champion this level of “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” or you’re all the things you just accused Pedro of, stopping just shy of calling him a racist and a sexist, where he and I have a problem rooted in the fact that Tolkien’s works are being used as a vehicle for a social agenda, as is everything today. By playing the game by their rules, we lose. I’m not playing. I fucking hate being socially engineered. I refuse to accept it, and whatever the consequences, so be it.

Let’s see what today’s episode brings. I think moving forward, I’ll withhold my thoughts for bit until others have posted. If we’re in for fifty fucking episodes, I don’t want to burn this out in three or four pages of debate.


You are a member of the Church of the Perpetually Offended, Right Wing Division. You are looking for something to be offended about and imagining what someone might say now about movies made twenty years ago.

There, I said it.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 51787 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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So we’re throwing insults around? Is that where we’re at, here?


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I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peripheral Visionary
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I've refused to watch. I learned my lesson from watching the Boba Fett series.

Jackson did some minor editing to the original storyline of the LOTR mostly for time constraint, and to appeal to a wider general audience than just LOTR enthusiasts. By and large, I think he did a great job on the first three movies. The Hobbit trilogy? It wasn't quite up to the standard set by LOTR, but OK.

My gripe with this, and SW Ep 7-9, is there was existing canon they could follow. They chose not to. I lose interest when they try to reinvent the wheel.




 
Posts: 10959 | Location: Texas | Registered: January 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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After a little looking around, I’ve read that Jackson came in as a last-minute replacement to Guillermo Del Toro on The Hobbit trilogy, so i can somewhat excuse him for that mess. He simply didn’t have time to rework the whole thing. I’ll judge him solely off his work with the LOTR trilogy.


______________________________________________
I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
After a little looking around, I’ve read that Jackson came in as a last-minute replacement to Guillermo Del Toro on The Hobbit trilogy, so i can somewhat excuse him for that mess.


Don't be so quick to absolve Jackson of his responsibility for that mess.

Jackson was calling the shots on The Hobbit from the start, as executive producer and writer. He just added additional directorial duties when Del Toro backed out. Del Toro hadn't even begun direction at that point. It was still in preproduction, and Jackson had been heading that process from the very beginning, even before Del Toro himself was attached.

In addition, the last minute decision to turn it from 2 movies into 3 was Jackson's. (Literally last minute... Principal filming was basically complete when he talked the studio into stretching it out into a trilogy, and the studio naturally agreed because $$$.)

This unnecessary cash-grab move is my main gripe with the Hobbit trilogy... It clearly would have worked a lot better as a tighter dual movie set, without all the obviously extraneous additions and with fewer overly drawn-out CGI action scenes.
 
Posts: 29421 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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Fair enough. From you, I tend to take all information as thoroughly researched.


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I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well you guys enjoy your show that is titled Tolkien but isn’t even close. As for Irish winds comments, for fucks sake at least read what I wrote before calling me a racist. Your interpretation of my comment is laughably off base.
 
Posts: 5426 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
...
Irishwind, I have the same complaints Pedro has, and I would say your last post is an entirely unfair characterization. That isn’t at all my problem or what I want to see on screen. My issue lies in the fact that it’s a gotcha game. You either accept or champion this level of “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” or you’re all the things you just accused Pedro of, stopping just shy of calling him a racist and a sexist, where he and I have a problem rooted in the fact that Tolkien’s works are being used as a vehicle for a social agenda, as is everything today. By playing the game by their rules, we lose. I’m not playing. I fucking hate being socially engineered. I refuse to accept it, and whatever the consequences, so be it.

Let’s see what today’s episode brings. I think moving forward, I’ll withhold my thoughts for bit until others have posted. If we’re in for fifty fucking episodes, I don’t want to burn this out in three or four pages of debate.


I am under the impression this is mainly Galadriel's story. At least so far. It would seem weird to recast Galadriel as a man.... And people complaining she's a Mary Sue is laughable. She is supposed to be better than the average elf. Tolkien even described her as the greatest of Evlen women. By the time we get to the Peter Jackson movies, she has been entrusted by a peer with one of the Elven rings of Power. Not an item you give to a weak person, unless you are Sauron, right?


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24486 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
Well you guys enjoy your show that is titled Tolkien but isn’t even close. As for Irish winds comments, for fucks sake at least read what I wrote before calling me a racist. Your interpretation of my comment is laughably off base.

quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
...When there are no strong white characters and the only sensible strong characters are of color and women that is woke...


Woke is what again? Using you definition from page 2.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24486 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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That’s as may be, but she was commander of no army, nor a warrior in the book, correct? Greatest of Elven women means superior to Elven men in all ways as portrayed thus far? This show is very much a display of modern ultra-feminism, let’s not be coy here.


______________________________________________
I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
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quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
So we’re throwing insults around? Is that where we’re at, here?


It is a criticism of your predilection to see everything through this one lens, and your derision of people who do not agree with you. I threw in a little shade as a bonus.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 51787 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
So we’re throwing insults around? Is that where we’re at, here?


It is a criticism of your predilection to see everything through this one lens, and your derision of people who do not agree with you. I threw in a little shade as a bonus.


Uh huh. So what did you think of the last two episodes? You watch episode four yet?


______________________________________________
I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oh cry me a river Irish. I get it, you are so in tune with everything that you don't see discrimination anymore. Good for you. Then made all the male elves pussies and back stabbers. They were completely impotent in the face on one snow troll. They were saved from complete annihilation only by Galadriel's heroics. Did I miss something? Is that the Tolkien you read?

You seem hung up on the word "woke". Forget it was ever said. How about writing strong characters both male and female? How about following your source material? Who cares if it is Galadriel's story, my concern is why are all the male elves such douches?
 
Posts: 5426 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I swear I had
something for this
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While on a different movie, just replace race with sex and it fits. It’s also what you’d expect from two trash writers from Bad Reboot who’s only Hollywood credit was a Star Trek movie so bad Paramount thought Star Trek Beyond was a better option.

 
Posts: 3044 | Location: Kansas City, MO | Registered: May 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
So let it be written,
so let it be done...
Picture of Dzozer
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Well, I think they left the hobbit story line out of this episode - I didn't notice until afterwards.
I wonder who this Adar guy is who cries when Orc's die? He has memories of walking in Beleriand - surely not Sauron himself already?
And Surprise! Tar-Palantir is alive!! Ok... Is this becoming a Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode for me?



'Live long and prosper'
 
Posts: 3586 | Location: The Prairie | Registered: April 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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I’m not sure who he’s supposed to be. Sauron was Maiar, not Elven. Could be an invented character, one of the original orcs, maybe.

What was it that he picked up off the ground and was clutching in several later shots? I’m watching this on a little screen, it’s hard to tell what I’m looking at sometimes.

And yes, thankfully no proto-hobbits in this one.


DanH, thanks for that video. I don’t know who he is, but he speaks the truth. Applicable here both in terms of sex and race.


______________________________________________
I believe in the 25th amendment.
 
Posts: 14769 | Location: Gilbert, AZ | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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