Agree or disagree, I have a few new (to me) movies to watch. Para? Care to add any others to the list?

Language NSFW.

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:
Para? Care to add any others to the list?

Add? No. That list is a real mess.

When I refer to Westerns I am talking about feature films. He's got episodic, commercial television in there. Anything cut up by commercials is null and void, and when referring to episodic TV series, which episodes? All of them? If so, that means someone is a real fan of a series and they're not being objective, because most series have some poor episodes.

Spaghetti Westerns? Not my thing. Yes, blasphemy to some that I don't genuflect at the altar of Leone, but I cannot stand dubbed dialogue in which it is clear actors are speaking in another language. Also, the locations are usually clearly not the actual American West and that's out for me. The actors look like Europeans, because for the most part, they are. The costumes, the sets- all of it is a little off, and I don't like it. I've seen plenty of these films, but...


Corbucci? Acid Westerns? Puhleeze. How pretentious. It's the Tarantino influence taken up by pedantic film snobs. I'll provide you with a list of films which represent the American Western (the only kind of western, really).

Hell on Wheels? Really I didn't watch the last couple of seasons of it, but what I saw was poorly written and even more poorly directed. Deadwood is superb, but the rest of his list- yuck.

After TV started to take off in the early 1950s, some film production companies adopted the same high-key, flat lighting for expediency, and there is a whole lot of these 1950 black and white Westerns which are visually dreary, and that's putting it mildly. The writing, the direction, the acting, all usually pedestrian, predictable and not worth my time. These are the kinds of films playing in the waiting room in Hell, right after you get off the elevator and are waiting to be processed. He's got some of that stuff on his list.

Pale Rider is an acceptable film but I don't care for the distinct Spaghetti Western flavor which resulted from Eastwood's relationship to the Leone films.

Here's a list films which show the best of the genre- in my opinion, of course. Not in any particular order except in how they come to mind as I'm typing this.

The great John Ford

The Searchers

Sergeant Rutledge - both played on TCM the other night, back to back.

Sam Peckinpah

Ride the High Country

Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid

That second one requires qualification. After Peckinpah completed the film, the studio re-edited and Peckinpah asked for his name to be taken off of it. Honestly, I don't know if the film as it's being aired these days is what the studio had in mind, or Peckinpah. I think it's the latter. All I can tell you is that in its present form this is a great film and would be on a top ten list of Westerns for me. This film does something to me. I'm certain it has to do at least in part with the fact that it was produced in the early 1970s- a vivid time for me as a fledgling film buff.

The Budd Boetticher / Randolph Scott Westerns - the best of the 1950s Westerns

The Tall T (from an Elmore Leonard short story)

Buchanan Rides Alone

7 Men from Now

McCabe & Mrs. Miller- Robert Altman's underrated Western- and actually unrecognized by many as a Western film due to its look and its tone, but a Western it is. If you haven't seen it, TCM is airing it at 2AM on Tuesday (or thereabouts)

Hombre- From Elmore Leonard's book, and while the film is great, the book is even better. This is another film which resonates strongly with me; the tone of it, and the time in which it was produced- it's too much to go into right now.

One Eyed Jacks- Yet another overlooked film. Brando's only directorial. It is, in a word, a masterpiece.

The Gunfighter

Shane (of course, and Jack Palance is still a low-down Yankee liar)

The Big Country

Monte Walsh and that's both the Lee Marvin feature film and the Tom Sellick TV movie, and that is such a rare thing- a TV remake that stands up to the feature film original.

Union Pacific- Cecil B. DeMille's Western about the building of the Transcontinental Railroad. DeMille was a gun collector and if you want to see a whole lot of authentic hardware, check it out.

Canyon Passage- It's a little-known film these days. Jacques Tourneur (Out of the Past) made a color Western film and I include this one to point out that there are quite a few very fine westerns which get little air time.

Man of the West- because no list about great westerns should omit Gary Cooper.

Western film noir- I tell people that noir westerns are illustrative of the fact that film noir is a style, not a genre. For these last two films, the genre is Western; the style is film noir.

Blood on the Moon- a real favorite of mine. Robert Mitchum. I watch this film every time it airs.

Ramrod- because just as with Cooper, no list of great Westerns should omit Joel McCrea.

Oh, and how could I forget? The definitive word on the American Western:

Unforgiven

It's appropriate that Eastwood's finest western- and one of the greatest American films of any genre- should come in the last decade of the 20th Century. The antithesis of Kasdan's Silverado (which is highly enjoyable), Unforgiven succeeds in portraying the old West the way it likely was. There are no heroes in the film, almost no humor, and the ending is bleak. Does Unforgiven leave you feeling melancholy? Then Eastwood and writer David Peoples have accomplished their goal.

I love westerns and the more realistic the better, but I also enjoy Spaghetti Westerns. I see them as I see the old Kung Fu movies I watched as a kid in the 70's. A fantasy land where exaggerated stereotypes are capable of super human levels of gun and hand to hand combat.
I don't even mind the cheesy overdubs, it's what I expect out of these parallel world kind of movies.
On the other hand, I strongly dislike the westerns that pretend to be serious and are full of anachronisms, unrealistic for the time period dialogue, clothing and weapons.
As much as I love John Wayne movies, they were some of the worst offenders in that regard.
If I made a list, I'd make Spaghetti Westerns a sub genre.

Ulzanas Raid and The Professionals should be included in any list.
And The Oxbow Incident.

Sorry to say, Razorfist's and my list do not match in the slightest.

My list:

The Searchers
Unforgiven
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Stagecoach
Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid
Shane
The Magnificent Seven
The Ox Bow Incident
Red River
3:10 to Yuma (w/Glenn Ford)

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Ulzanas Raid and The Professionals should be included in any list.

That's an odd thing to say, considering all of this is a matter of opinion and taste. Feel free to make your own list.

quote:

And The Oxbow Incident.

Westerns with clear political messages lose points with me. I don't want to be preached at. Save it for the Sunday pulpit.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

Of course, and shame on me for not including it with the two Ford westerns I listed.

When this film was released the critics panned it, in part because it was shot almost entirely on studio lots, but now it's considered a classic, and I wouldn't change a single thing about it.

Additions & Omissions not necessarily top 10 but entertaining.
Blazing Saddles
High Noon
Appaloosa, "That happened quick" "Everybody could shoot" Plus a lot of other great lines.
Little Big Man
True Grit, either one
The Revenant
Not Grizzley Adams as I previously listed, Jeremiah Johnson is what I was going for.

Para, Two Peckinpahs but not the Wild Bunch?

Yes, Appaloosa is a good old-fashioned western, except that I found Renee Zelwegger really, REALLY annoying in this film.

quote:

Originally posted by tjcj:
Para, Two Peckinpahs but not the Wild Bunch?

The politics- the overt comparison to US involvement in Vietnam. There are parts of the film I like but as I said, I don't like clear political messages in my westerns.

William Wyler intended for his political allegory to come through in The Big Country but he failed in this regard, as illustrated by the fact that President Eisenhower loved this film, and he was one of the people Wyler was shooting at. So, this film makes the cut for me.

Any list that doesn't have The Searchers at #1 is suspect. Not having it at all is laughable.

In no order, my favorites are:
The Searchers
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Wild Bunch
The Outlaw Josey Wales
Unforgiven
Shane
Rio Bravo
Tombstone
High Noon

Well that's 9 and then it gets tough to finish it off, depending on how you choose to classify some films. Some contenders would be The Shootist, Dances with Wolves, Hell or High Water, Wind River, Legends of the Fall, All the Pretty Horses, True Grit (2010), Jeremiah Johnson, The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford and Lonesome Dove (miniseries).

Oh, damn, how could I forget about Rio Bravo? Heresy!

In my defense, I was posting from memory, but, yes, Rio Bravo is a top ten western for me.

Para, would you include The Grey Fox on your list?
I know that in a previous thread you had started, you mentioned it was of the Northwestern genre.

And I will add: My Darling Clementine. And The Shootist.

The thing for me about The Shootist is that the ending of the film and the ending of the book are radically different in one respect. Once you start reading the books these films are made from, it can really change your perspective on the films, and that's the case for me of the The Shootist.

I think some members might be shocked at the ending of the book.

quote:

Originally posted by Patrick-SP2022:
Para, would you include The Grey Fox on your list?
I know that in a previous thread you had started, you mentioned it was of the Northwestern genre.

I hesitate to call it a western, despite having many of the trappings of the genre.

I don't really consider it a western for the same reason Quigley Down Under is not a Western: it doesn't take place in the American West.

But, as a film outside of generic classification, it's a gem: The Grey Fox

Page 2 of that thread discusses the film's actual classification.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Oh, damn, how could I forget about Rio Bravo? Heresy!

In my defense, I was posting from memory, but, yes, Rio Bravo is a top ten western for me.

I would have no problem of revising my list and just include John Wayne films (I have four in mine), including Rio Bravo, El Dorado, Fort Apache, She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, True Grit, and Rio Grande. His films are just so damned entertaining and watchable.

A lot of people consider Bad Day At Black Rock to be a Western. I am a Spencer Tracy / Robert Ryan fan but have a hard time including this film as a true Western. And I have read Swarthouts book and from what I understand, John Wayne insisted on changing the ending. I wont be a spoiler and reveal it, but the book is much bleaker in tone and J.B. Books came off as being more ruthless than Wayne portrayed him.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Yes, Appaloosa is a good old-fashioned western, except that I found Renee Zelwegger really, REALLY annoying in this film.

quote:

Originally posted by tjcj:
Para, Two Peckinpahs but not the Wild Bunch?

The politics- the overt comparison to US involvement in Vietnam. There are parts of the film I like but as I said, I don't like clear political messages in my westerns.

William Wyler intended for his political allegory to come through in The Big Country but he failed in this regard, as illustrated by the fact that President Eisenhower loved this film, and he was one of the people Wyler was shooting at. So, this film makes the cut for me.

Zellweger is annoying and my wife won't watch it because of her. Never read the Robert Parker novel but the dialog between Ed Harris and Viggo Mortensen is excellent. The Big Country has some great speechifying from Burl Ives along with a superb score from Jerome Moross. Big Country and The Magnificent Seven, (another great score), were recently released in 4K. Nice.

quote:

Add? No. That list is a real mess.

Thank you! I wasn't 100% sure you'd have a bone to pick with it, but I knew I'd get some excellent info from the western fans here.