quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:

So sorry if we spoiled this for you. It was hard for me to keep my mouth shut on this one, should have used "spoiler alert".

Not at all, Ripley, I appreciated the heads-up! I used to be a super fan of F-1, and now that it's changed so much, I don't care to waste time watching them destroy the sport further.

I agree that the penalty wasn't necessary, but saw some justification from the stewards:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/...shed-canada/4461461/

quote:

But while it is clear from on board footage that Vettel was battling to regain control of his car after bouncing across the grass, it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on actions that Vettel took once he had got going again.

The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car – and it was felt that it showed that the German could have chosen a different path than the one he took.

The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track – which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right by the German.

Shortly after that, however, Vettel has dispatched the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel which allows his car to drift to the right – cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.

That is pretty much what I saw.

Serb did a good job of regaining control, but once he did, he purposely impeded Hammie's attempt to avoid hitting him by going around.

Once Hammie had to hit the brakes to avoid the collision, it became the definition of "unsafe/impeding" on the part of Serb

so Hammy deliberately drove into the past that Seb took as he tried not to spin out and wreck his car - and not take Hammy with him...

thats what the stewards should have considered - in full speed the entire episode lasted what - 0.3 seconds at best....

nice to second guess from the air conditioned board room in slo-motion

Yeah, it's hard to ascribe motive with this incident as fast as it unfolded. FWIW Seb/Ferrari had everything to lose, Hammy/Merc much less so there's that. More than a few rumors swirling that Vettel may retire after this year, Hamilton is looking for five more years in F1. Looks like two different mindsets to consider.

Little LewLew went against his history of plugging any gap available, credit for that. I find it hard to believe that Seb had any purpose but self-preservation once back on the racing surface.

The ruling stinks and is a blot on the series. I've already mentioned one other option, if anything at all was called for.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
so Hammy deliberately drove into the past that Seb took as he tried not to spin out and wreck his car - and not take Hammy with him...

thats what the stewards should have considered - in full speed the entire episode lasted what - 0.3 seconds at best....

nice to second guess from the air conditioned board room in slo-motion

In racing, it is called the preferred or racing line. And when Seb left that line, and Hamster was on that line, with the front wheel at the side pod, had Hamster not broke, they both would have suffered. Had nobody been there, he would have not been penalized. Had a backmarker been there, the same penalty would have come into play. Forget about who was in the car and position, this has happened numerous times in the past five years, just not to first place.
Unfortunately, Vettel made himself out to be a whiny little shit akin to Helmut Marko with his moving the place placards, and complaining on the radio, and refusing to put his car into parc ferme.

Here is the thing, if you are a dyed in the wool Ferrari fan, it doesn't matter, your mind is made up, but those of us who have had to referee or investigate rules violations see it fairly clearly. I do wish they were more clear on violations to penalties. Max Verstappen causing a puncture in pit lane demands a 5 second penalty, yet causes a 20 loss to the innocent party. Would this not lead to more incidental punctures from people who can't pass a person in front?

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:
Yeah, it's hard to ascribe motive with this incident as fast as it unfolded. FWIW Seb/Ferrari had everything to lose, Hammy/Merc much less so there's that. More than a few rumors swirling that Vettel may retire after this year, Hamilton is looking for five more years in F1. Looks like two different mindsets to consider.

Little LewLew went against his history of plugging any gap available, credit for that. I find it hard to believe that Seb had any purpose but self-preservation once back on the racing surface.

The ruling stinks and is a blot on the series. I've already mentioned one other option, if anything at all was called for.

Comparing controlling a race, such as Monaco, from the lead, and staying on track, to an unsafe track entry is about as dumb of a comparison as I have heard. You do realize in the past five years there have been 17 penalties (time and points) for this same Infraction? And before your rebuttal that not all have been time penalties, they have been when in points finishing positions. RoGro got driver's licence points last year in Barcelona because he was out of the points.
If this had been Norris and Magnussen for 12th place in the same corner, with the same penalty, nobody would be discussing it.

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:
..about as dumb of a comparison as I have heard.

I defer to your genius and am proud to be a superlative in your memory bank of stupid things other people say. Watching Sky's post-race coverage and reading dedicated F1 forum discussions, no one comes near to your level of certitude. So honored for the education.

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:
..about as dumb of a comparison as I have heard.

I defer to your genius and am proud to be a superlative in your memory bank of stupid things other people say. Watching Sky's post-race coverage and reading dedicated F1 forum discussions, no one comes near to your level of certitude. So honored for the education.

Be my guest and enlighten the world with your knowledge how the two are the same......

This whole fiasco it is topped off by Vettel commenting on Verstappen running Raikonnen off at the final chicane at the 2018 Japanese Grand Prix during the post race conference. He said "the driver in Raikkonen's position should not always have to take avoiding action", and when asked if he agreed with the penalty he nodded.

Odd how the other driver should take action and slow when he is the one committing the offense.

So please, share with us how staying on the racing line and controlling the race is the same as cutting the corner and making people have to brake to avoid a collision? Oh that's right, if you are vettel, you simply run into the back of other cars.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Grosjean went off on the first lap across the runoff and reentered right into the middle of others and no mention was made.

https://www.formula1.com/en/la...8zwsPK8lenGCRn3.html

I had to rewatch that part. Albon had his front wing ripped off from a tussle with Raikkonen. Grosjean took to the escape because he had part of Albon's wing in his cockpit, and rejoined behind both Albon (who didn't have a front wing) and Raikkonen in 19th place. I'm not sure he gained anything there. He was 19th when the first list was posted, and only passed Albon (for 18th) because he pitted. You could argue that Grosjean possibly impeded Raikkonen, but Kimi kept his place, and actually passed Albon at the next corner. Also, historically, time penalties are given to the top 12 places, and no "rejoining the track in an unsafe manner" have been given in any of the last 2 years' races during the first lap.

Here is Jolyon Palmer's take on the penalty:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803

Then there is this interview with Sebastian Vettel stating he does not like time penalties..."but it is better for me because I pass both" referencing the time penalty on Verstappen, and the pushing his then teammate (Kimi) off the circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7mx3z-vbj4

It also does not help that you can hear Vettel's engine throttle revving before the back tires were on the tarmac, and the Stewards specifically asked for the telemetry data. Moreover, video was provided from the air intake scoop/ T-bar camera to the stewards. My guess is that there is more than a little evidence to prove the penalty was warranted.

I think Toto had it right.
The problem isn't with the call they made, it's the rules that require these types of calls.
Let them race.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
I think Toto had it right.
The problem isn't with the call they made, it's the rules that require these types of calls.
Let them race.

I'll tell you what I'd like to see stop - drivers calling pit lane to complain. Guenther Steiner's response back to Magnussen was epic. Essentially we are not having a good time rebuilding your car from a crash, then having you run dead last. STFU!

Yes, Guenther is a no BS kind of guy.

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:
..if you are vettel, you simply run into the back of other cars.

Yeah, that didn't happen Sunday.

I'll waste some more time with you, for starters this is revealing. Based on your history of Vettel bashing -- that's fine -- I don't see an unbiased observer here --

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:
..Vettel made himself out to be a whiny little shit...

quote:

..if you are a dyed in the wool Ferrari fan, it doesn't matter, your mind is made up...

You cite 17 incidents in 5 years, how vague is that? Unavoidable contact? Advantage gained? who knows. The series' history of inconsistent rulings is well documented, now you say they're strictly consistent in these cases?

A casual observer sampled opinions across the web, he came up with this. Take it for what you will --

A list of drivers or ex-drivers from motorsport who think this penalty is wrong:

Casey Stoner,
Mark Webber,
Damon Hill,
Nigel Mansell,
Jacques Villeneuve,
Mario Andretti,
Alexander Wurz,
David Hobbs,
Jenson Button,
Helmut Marko,
Martin Brundle,
Jimmie Johnson,
David Coulthard,
Daniel Ricciardo


A list of drivers or ex-drivers from motorsport who think this penalty is ok:

Nico Rosberg,
Christian Danner

https://forums.autosport.com/t...-canadian-gp/page-33

There's a human element throughout the process in this case - drivers, stewards, observers - that always clouds an issue. I stand by my criticism of the ruling. Your clumsy response won no points here. It turns out you're not the source-of-universal-racing-truth.

Regardless of anyone's opinion on the merits of the penalty, this has generated more interest in F1 than they've had in years.
I'll bet that behind the scenes, Liberty Media is loving this.

Daniel Ricciardo asks, how is this different and he may have a point.

Monaco 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDaTXa-IMc

I can't let this slide, let's call it a day on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:
..(Vettel) moving the place placards

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:

Here is Jolyon Palmer's take on the penalty:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803

You obviously are an F1 fan and knowledgeable, however, posting Jolyon Palmer's take on the penalty??? Please!!! Seriously, there hasn't been a bigger no talent F1 driver ever. My God, if he was still driving he would make the torpedo look like Senna. Him and Rosberg are two of a handful of people who see the penalty as warranted.

You obviously also are not a fan of Vettel which explains your seeing the penalty the way you see it.

I have no dog in this fight. Background for me watching F1 is minimal. I tried a few years ago to get into it and I couldn't stomach it for a few reasons. While my wife was getting ready for us to go to dinner, I did catch a bit of the race. Easily the most idiotic move I have seen in regards to penalties in racing. There is no bias for one driver/team/manufacturer from me, but I saw what happened, waited for their "investigation" results, and promptly turned the TV off and sat in silence for the remainder of my wait until my wife was done getting ready.

How the hell do they expect to gain new fans when they come up with some cockamamie way to have someone other than the person that crosses the finish line first win the race.

Let them race for fucks sake ...

(Multiple world champions)