What could go wrong?

Very brief summary:

https://www.history.com/topics...operation-barbarossa

The beginning of the end.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
The beginning of the end.

In hindsight, perhaps.

But at the time, Germany actually had a shot at knocking the Soviet Union out of the war, had they played their cards right. It was a bit of a long shot, but doable, with the right combination of leadership and logistics. But failures in both factors proved to be Germany's downfall, causing Germany to bog down in the Western Soviet Union and giving the Soviet Union enough time to ramp up production in the Central Soviet Union, receive military aid from the West, and rebuild their military strength to an overwhelming level.

Although Stalingrad is a popular choice as the "true beginning of the end" on the Eastern Front, I prefer to point to the later Battle of Kursk in Summer 1943, whose loss by Germany marked the end of their ability to perform any large-scale offensives on the Eastern Front for the remainder of the war. Before Kursk, the Germans were certainly weakened after losing the Army Group at Stalingrad and retreating to more defensible positions, but they still have the ability to rebuild their strength and mass forces for a major offensive that had a chance at cutting off the primary Soviet summer offensive before it could begin. But after the failure of their major offensive at Kursk, the Germans were fatally weakened and forced wholly on the defensive with ever-dwindling resources, and it was all over but the fighting (for two more years).

I’ve wondered what would have happened if the allied forces had removed Germany from the African continent, the Middle East, secured the safety of the English isles, given no aid to Russia and then let Hitler and Stalin fight until until the bitter end. What would it have looked like much later with the Nazis and Communists ruined by years of war? It’s one of the most interesting what if’s of history.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
The beginning of the end.

In hindsight, perhaps.

That's what 77 years can do for you. Hindsight improves with age.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 220-9er,

As Dan Carlin referenced in Hardcore History, old General Snow (or Winter) was a badass.

Hitler did nazi what was coming...

And then, he tops off the year by declaring war on the United States, right after Pearl Harbor. Yep, that Hitler was some kind of military genius.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
The beginning of the end.

I disagree. When Germany declared war against the United States was The beginning of the end. It was US and England that decimated Germany war industry that was the key.

Hitler had to declare war against us since they were allies with Japan...

I think they were after all the natural resources on the Western side of the Soviet Union... what they did not expect is how many people Stalin would throw (sacrifice) at them.... best numbers these days is between 20 and 30 million.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
Hitler had to declare war against us since they were allies with Japan...

I think they were after all the natural resources on the Western side of the Soviet Union... what they did not expect is how many people Stalin would throw (sacrifice) at them.... best numbers these days is between 20 and 30 million.

The Tripartite Pact was a defensive alliance only (Article 3); Hitler was obliged to come to Japan’s aid if they were attacked first—not the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by sigspecops:
I’ve wondered what would have happened if the allied forces had removed Germany from the African continent, the Middle East, secured the safety of the English isles, given no aid to Russia and then let Hitler and Stalin fight until until the bitter end. What would it have looked like much later with the Nazis and Communists ruined by years of war? It’s one of the most interesting what if’s of history.

There were peace overtures from both sides of the Nazi-Soviet conflict - infrequent, and only from the side which, at the time, was almost on the ropes so the other side ignored the tentative feelers.

If the West hadn't helped the Russians out with tanks, planes, trucks, supplies etc. and hadn't created a Western Front, the Russians could well have channeled their inner 1939 and done yet another deal with Hitler/Ribbentrop. We tend to forget or overlook the horrendous losses in personnel the Soviets were enduring. And the Nazis were not looking to take over the whole USSR, just the 'good bits' east of the Urals. A deal giving them the good bits, and letting the rest of the USSR lick its wounds would have been welcomed by the Germans.

And then.....all those hundreds of divisions would have been transferred to the Western front. Festung Europa, on steriods. Not going to crack that nut with a couple divisions on a small stretch of French beach.

As tough as it was booting them out of Western Europe as one of two fronts....imagine the unprettyness of it being the only front - at least twice as many Germans.

If we did prevail (not guaranteed) we would have had a lot more casualties and the war would have lasted far longer. Or, possibly, after the USSR gives up/settles and all the German focus returns to Western Europe making invasion unlikely to succeed or too costly to contemplate (the UK was running out of men by 1944 in the real-life scenario) maybe the remaining Allies say , 'screw that' and don't invade.

Imagine what the Germans could have done with time, and a secure Europe. Mass-produced Tiger and Panther tanks and jet planes, truly submarine-submarines, pulse-jet and rocket powered missiles.

So, yeah, that scenario where we say, "Russia and Germany, you two go fight it out." and we hold off? Smaller USSR, yeah, but ugly, ugly consequences.

Germany may well have developed the bomb in that scenario. We would have had to drop one on Berlin before they dropped one on London. I don’t think we could have gotten away from that tarbaby.

In all the WW II documentaries on Operation Barbarossa I have seen on TV, it's remarkable to me, that all the historians interviewed have shown restraint by not saying, " What a Bonehead move !!"

What I discovered a few months ago is that is now officially when we the U.S. entered the war. Can't quite figure out when that happened but the first soldiers now listed officially killed in WWII died on June 22nd 1941 when their plane crashed in Lagrange Georgia.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
What I discovered a few months ago is that is now officially when we the U.S. entered the war. Can't quite figure out when that happened but the first soldiers now listed officially killed in WWII died on June 22nd 1941 when their plane crashed in Lagrange Georgia.

The first US serviceman to die in WW2 was Captain Robert Losey of the US Army Air Corps, who died on April 21st, 1940.

Captain Losey was a military attache at the US Embassy in Finland. When Germany invaded Norway, he was sent over to help evacuate the US embassy personnel in Norway to Sweden. While in Norway, he was killed in a Luftwaffe bombing raid.

Hitler would have owned Europe had he not invaded Russia. Second dumbest blunder in history behind the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
What I discovered a few months ago is that is now officially when we the U.S. entered the war. Can't quite figure out when that happened but the first soldiers now listed officially killed in WWII died on June 22nd 1941 when their plane crashed in Lagrange Georgia.

The first US serviceman to die in WW2 was Captain Robert Losey of the US Army Air Corps, who died on April 21st, 1940.

Captain Losey was a military attache at the US Embassy in Finland. When Germany invaded Norway, he was sent over to help evacuate the US embassy personnel in Norway to Sweden. While in Norway, he was killed in a Luftwaffe bombing raid.

Look up the Town of Herlong California and see who it is named after. That's where I got my information.

Hitler may have saved Europe from communism by invading Russia. Consider where all Russian Armies where at the time of German invasion. The Russian were ready for an invasion of Europe but Hitler beat out Stalin.
This is why pockets 250,000 Russians were captured here and there. The German Army made it all the way just short of Moscow then halted. That's where he blundered. Thankfully of course.