Oyster Crackers or Petite Toasts are good and somewhat popular palate cleansers, often offered during tastings I've been to. When I want to *add* flavor, aged Gouda or aged Swiss pair well and are bold enough to stand up to the whiskey.

So tell me more about these tastings, 46and2. Are they hosted by personal friends, or restaurants, or whiskey bars, or bourbon clubs?

Also, anyone ever buy bourbon off the secondary market, eg. Craig's List, Bottle Spot, Liquor List, etc? How did it go? Anybody trade bourbon rather than outright buys?

I had to drive to Wilson, North Carolina for a wedding recently, and there was an ABC store between the church and reception, so I stopped in. They had 4 bottles of Weller Antique 107 and bottle of E.H. Taylor Small Batch I scarfed up at good prices. They also had a bottle of Barterhouse I regret leaving on the shelf, but as I have one bottle, it would be a backup. I've started doing that, backing up the bourbon's I like that can be hard to find. I feel bad doing it, but the good stuff is so hard to find, there's no telling when I'll see it again. I console myself that at least it's for my consumption, and not to flip for a profit like others are doing.

I also picked up a bottle of the newest limited release of Abraham Bowman. This one is a high rye bourbon (about 40-45%), and won't be available much outside of Virginia, as I understand it.

Interested in the new Maker's Keep 17 Y.O. Wild Turkey just recently released, but $150.00 is a little rich for my blood for a bourbon without the legacy of of greatness of other bourbons at that price point. People seem to be snapping it up, though.

quote:

Originally posted by jigray3:

Also, anyone ever buy bourbon off the secondary market, eg. Craig's List, Bottle Spot, Liquor List, etc? How did it go? Anybody trade bourbon rather than outright buys?

I find little value on the secondary market especially craigslist where you deal with flakes and potential fakes. $1000 for a bottle of 20yr Pappy is insane. It isn't that good.

I trade bottles once in a while but I mostly trade samples. There's an active group on reddit.

quote:

Originally posted by berto:

quote:

Originally posted by jigray3:

Also, anyone ever buy bourbon off the secondary market, eg. Craig's List, Bottle Spot, Liquor List, etc? How did it go? Anybody trade bourbon rather than outright buys?

I find little value on the secondary market especially craigslist where you deal with flakes and potential fakes. $1000 for a bottle of 20yr Pappy is insane. It isn't that good.

I trade bottles once in a while but I mostly trade samples. There's an active group on reddit.

Yeah, I certainly understand there won't be any values on the secondary market, but when there's few other alternatives and the price isn't obscene, I might consider it for a special bottle or two. Part of that is looking in the right places and dealing with the right people, which is why I ask.

I don't give any of my money to whiskey flippers and profiteers, on principle - and based on my general disposition of despising unnecessary middle men who add no real value, in any context. I have to suppress my natural inclination to beat those sorts of flippers and collectors who themselves drive up prices just to make a buck with a giant bag of empty whiskey bottles... oh how I hate the practice. it's deep seeded and a tad irrational, and I do suppress it, but still...

I have to work my ass off to get certain things, and I'm not opposed to small favors or incentives for those who help - but it's a fine line and I really, really hate to pay more than retail.
I will, on occasion, but not by much and not very often, and usually indirectly via favors.

also, having tasted around 300 whiskies by now (of all sorts) - I don't think any of them are worth more than about $150 a bottle to me (and most I drink cost me $25-100/ea) as they just aren't different enough from those for less than that, and there are already so many good ones for so relatively cheap that it's just too wasteful to me. plus, for instance, I'll still take Elmer over, say, JWBlue or even Pappy 23 (too woody to me, I'll take 15yr over it forever and the next day).

I may pony up for the 17yr Wild Turkey. My personal favorite Wild Turkey is the Japanese release that's the WT101 but in 15yr (whereas, you probably know, normal US 101 is a mix of various years, something like - 4/8/12/a dash of 15).

and I do the same thing you do, I buy back stock for what I like when I see it. I try to keep a rolling 3yr supply of my favorite 20 bourbons and ryes, based on an average consumption of 1 bottle per month (which is higher than reality but gives me some buffer to share without screwing up my system). its the only way to ensure availability. the simple way is to try to stay n-bottles deep in any given favorite. 3-deep, when I have 20 different kinds and enjoy all of them, is more than 5yrs worth of whiskey and not an especially difficult goal in many cases (Pappy, BTAC, and the Japanese WT aside).

as for tastings, almost always just at friends or friends of theirs... once in a while at a liquor store... the usual pretention surrounding whiskey events and the Scotch world is something that doesn't interest me at all. there are a million other things I'd rather do than get dressed up to sip whiskey with strangers at some casino or hotel or convention center. and fortunately I've been lucky, having made friends who happen to have large collections and who aren't wieners about it or anything else.

I completely understand your feelings with regard to flippers. In my case, however, stuck in Virginia like I am and at the mercy of the state monopoly with one channel of distribution, it could be argued they are providing a service and should be compensated for that service. If I am a free market capitalist, I should celebrate the idea they are helping equilibrium in the market, and redistributing product from where it may be plentiful to where it may be scarce.

The manufacturers are showing signs they are starting to catch up. Prices for elite offering are rising precipitously. People are questioning releases like the new WT Master's Keep 17 Y.O. you mention. Not that it isn't a quality offering, which it is, but at $150.00 and under 90 proof does it offer value to the consumer? Priced as it is, the difference in this case is Campari is pocketing the money, not necessarily the flipper. Do you demonize the manufacturers for inflating prices as well as flippers? Do I, as a consumer, really care who gets my $150, if I get what I paid for? Ethically interesting questions.

indeed, on all points.

I am a free market capitalist at heart, but find aspects of it to be mere technical exceptions that are tolerable to me only because they're legal and won't likely change. generally, I find collectors and flippers to have a net negative effect on various niches (knives, watches, shoes, whiskey, etc). an overtly greedy few fuck it up for most people, IMO.

and edge cases like the Republik of Virginia aside, I do care who gets the money if there was no real value to me added. I want to buy direct, pay original price, and not have to fuck with the rest. these other cocksuckers are causing me work, money, and grief. I have no love for them, so I vote with my wallet, and do my best to keep whiskey from getting like quality knives, where fucks that neither drink nor use knives amass large collections they just look at or flip for profit. an incredible waste, from incredibly selfish, excessively greedy cocks, IMO. walk em off the plank and let them feel lucky that's all they got... .

I never sell whiskey for a profit, nor do I collect. I only buy what I truly love and will consume or trade at what I have in it (and even that's very rare). I don't even stockpile anymore, beyond my rolling 3yr back stock (which is just a few bottles each).

were I in VA, I suspect I'd be more flexible, and certainly don't look down on you for doing what you have to.

And I agree, the WT 17 is absolutely overpriced at that proof. were it 101, I'd buy a few. at 90 or the like, I *may* buy one. maybe. I will, however, pay $60ish for WT 101 15yr all day long...

it's like (and I'll leave it at this): in a true free market I could buy directly from the Distillery for much less in fees and taxes. as it stands, instead I have to buy it at least two steps removed (wholesale then retail), which is bad enough, but I do - such is the three tiered system we have, and it's bad enough with allocations, regional issues, profit and taxes added at both steps, and so on, but I can at least suck it up and buy it at a liquor store and be done with it, but nooooooooo, some other meddling asshole gets involved and adds another layer - and sometimes another - just to skim their piece, at my expense, all after / on top of the already market determined regular price.

yes, fuck them, and the practice. parasites. absent of real value, in specific circumstances, such as this. buying just to sell is a double edged sword. and shit like this, ticket scalpers, and the like are just the shitty artifacts of an otherwise good system. assholes will abuse any system.

imagine the outrage if people did it with groceries or gasoline or water...

(Sorry for the drift)

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
(Sorry for the drift)

Well, I'm clear where you stand on the issue. And I certainly can't say I blame you. My position was really more that of devil's advocate, as I have not purchased any bourbon on the secondary market. Overpriced P-mags, maybe, but no bourbon...

If the distilleries raised their prices to what the market has decided the bottles are worth would they still fly off the shelves or would they sit? Willett raised their prices at the gift shop to combat flippers taking profits. They still sellout as fast as they can put it on the shelf and had to introduce bottle limits and ban people. The answer for me is wait out the nonsense, don't pay the flippers, and enjoy the wealth of delicious bourbon that's readily available.

yeah, sorry, I was ranting.

I support your rant 100%.

Keep the faith brothers, I found this on the shelf and paid $69.99.

It hit my store the week before Thanksgiving. I am about half finished.

We're controlled by the state here in Idaho and it blows! I understand why they do it, by lottery as to give folks a fair chance. I put my name in the hat and if I get drawn, I get one bottle of Pappy.

Thus, I've resorted to having my friends and family also enter the lottery in hopes of being drawn. I've only drawn once in 3 years and it was the 10yr old. I've told those who entered if they get picked, I'll give them the cash + a convenience fee for taking the time out for me.

I too refuse to flip bourbon, or purchase it. I am guilty of buying multiple bottles of something I like when it's available.

I talked to the Virginia ABC folks, and the current list for Pappy, BTAC, etc. is 3 years long and closed. I can't get on it at all because they feel the current allocation system isn't fair, and they will be developing a new one. Under the old one folks could get on the list multiple times by simply visiting multiple stores, which invited abuse. It also meant that a list that was 5 years long at one point was artificially larger than in reality because of all the multiple submissions. Not sure what ABC will land on as fair, the very idea of the government trying makes me cringe a bit.

I started keeping back stock of some of my favorites just this Spring, when Elmer T Lee hit the shelves after being gone for 8 months. I bought 6 bottles, and felt bad for doing it at the time, but it's been out of stock this time for almost 3 months, I'm down to 3 full bottles and starting to wonder if I bought enough. That's fairly illogical given I now have about 36 bottles of good bourbon lying around. Plus, it didn't stop me from buying these yesterday. I really like the 4th release - 132.2 proof of the Stagg, Jr., and felt like I'd regret not going 4 deep on this one.



I was recently talking with a friend who was given a bottle of 20 Y.O. Pappy last year. They have a bar in their home, entertain a lot, and learned quickly you won't have it long if you leave it out for all to see.

I like that Stagg Jr as well.

I believe Elmer is released twice a year, (it used to be released more often) so you likely will not see it till Fall.

My liquor store never puts the good stuff out on the shelves so I have to ask around. Seems Elmer T came through last friday and sold out quick. I did snag a bottle of the 132.2 Stagg Jr though. $55.

It's about the same price for the Stagg, Jr. here. One of the reasons I like it aside from the fact it is a good value for a barrel proof offering is because there's a little challenge to it. You have to get past the alcohol burn up front, but when you do, the flavors are rich meaty and intense. It's a really fun pour. When the first release hit the market there was a lot of debate about Jr. I didn't try any of the first three releases because reviews were mixed and I was new to bourbon, but by most accounts BT has really dialed this one in. I think it's a sleeper that will become a hard get.

As for Elmer, I'm hearing the same twice a year schedule as GA Gator, April and October specifically. It showed up here May 1 this year, but take that for what it's worth.

I had a forged oak after the pappy last night and it is some really tasty bourbon. It was better than the Lot B.

By the way one thing that bothers me about the Stagg Jr is the label on the back of the bottle is black, and it gives an illusion of a much darker bourbon than it actually is. ECBP is considerably darker in the glass.