I missed the first 20 minutes or so of the first episode, but from the comments I've seen on line, I don't think that the "early" Ho Chi Minh was covered.

By "early", I mean immediate post-WWI. Ho was primarily a nationalist. He was rebuffed by the French, Americans, and pretty much everybody else except the communists, so he went where he could get support for his efforts. By the time of our involvement in Vietnam, he was pretty much a figurehead and the hardliners were in charge.

I actually think it is more objective than some are giving credit.

Talked about the Viet Cong murdering Peace Corps volunteers.

Talked about the manipulation by 'Uncle Ho' to cultivate an image - propaganda...

Mentioned in several places the dedication, bravery and idealism of US military men.

Is Burns liberal? Probably - but I thinks its trying to show multiple sides to the story.

Haven't really seen anything I didn't learn in history classes in the 1980s...

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quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
I actually think it is more objective than some are giving credit.

Talked about the Viet Cong murdering Peace Corps volunteers.

Talked about the manipulation by 'Uncle Ho' to cultivate an image - propaganda...

Mentioned in several places the dedication, bravery and idealism of US military men.

Is Burns liberal? Probably - but I thinks its trying to show multiple sides to the story.

Haven't really seen anything I didn't learn in history classes in the 1980s...

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I watched the second episode last night. I missed the first.

I agree - it is more neutral than some previous comments indicate. No one looks all that lily-white here. Ho Chi Minh was described as a communist who very deliberately cultivated the image of the local sage and champion of the people. Both Viet Cong and Diem excesses were described.

I presume Burns is probably more lefty than most here, but the hour and a half I saw seemed generally fair. If you want a show the decides that North Vietnam and the VC were devils and that the U.S. was entirely in the right, you won't be happy.

Look at the contributors. Some lefties, and some righties. David Koch is a funder of the program. He won't sign off on a left-wing hatchet piece.

Yeah when one of the very first soundbites from an American Vietnam veteran is about how much he hated the Vietnamese, it's not hard to figure out. Leftists are incapable of hiding their bullshit. I'm not just saying this. I really believe it's the truth. They can't hide it, no matter how "objective" they try to act.

Oh, sure, Para, that soldier was talking about his feelings way back when, and the implication is how much he has grown and evolved and...

uh huh

That's what the veteran meant. The message being conveyed, though, is from those responsible for choosing to use that soundbite and using it right up front, and the intention is clear.

I am halfway through Burns's book on the Tet Offensive in 1968. He makes me want to throw up
There is no need for me to see his TV version.

sounds like something i won't mind missing. they want to keep spitting on someone. fuck the mother fuckers.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

Haven't really seen anything I didn't learn in history classes in the 1980s...

Same with his Civil War series, same with his baseball series, same with his Prohibition series...

He says nothing new, nothing we didn't already know, nothing giving a new perspective on the topic.

Left-leaning, yeah, I don't like that, either, but the guy is just...boring!

Burns' film making style has become familiar. Despite this and his political views, I enjoy almost all of his work.

It's difficult to believe that his series The Civil War will soon be 30 years old, Any documentary on this conflict, done after Burns' film, has been found wanting, at least in my opinion.

I think every American should see his three part Prohibition.

Regarding the current series, I think Burns has done a great job in explaining how the United Staes was gradually drawn in. The lead-up to iconic events such as the Buddhist monks immolating themselves is explained.
While Peter Coyote is a very good narrator, I can't help but remember that he's as left as they come, and now when I hear him narrate a Burns film, I keep thinking of his reverential tone when speaking of the greatest person who ever lived- FDR. Jeez, we get it. Here's a tissue. Compose yourself.

Hey, Ken, why don'tcha see if James Wood is available next time around? Surprise us for once.

Pretty interesting comments here.

The closest liberals can get to truth about the Vietnam war is blaming both sides, as opposed to just the US. I think the VC made propaganda for US leftists and they ate that shit up and believe it even now.

We prosecuted that war very poorly, and I think we'd have been better off never getting involved. that said, once you're in it you should fight to win. And never disrespect those who sacrifice to accomplish the mission.

A "heavy dose of skepticism" is indeed called for, given Burns' political leanings. When I say Leftists simply cannot help themselves, that's an insult, but it's not just an insult. It's the truth. Or, perhaps more accurately, it's the Truth, immutable and certain.

As to the war itself, hindsight is 20/20. Our motivations were pure, even if our methods were not.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
A "heavy dose of skepticism" is indeed called for, given Burns' political leanings. When I say Leftists simply cannot help themselves, that's an insult, but it's not just an insult. It's the truth. Or, perhaps more accurately, it's the Truth, immutable and certain.

As to the war itself, hindsight is 20/20. Our motivations were pure, even if our methods were not.

The impure methods were mostly belonging to our Pols. During my two tours separated by a half tour in Korea, my limited view of the war showed me only highly professional, well trained soldiers.
Of course, 20/20 hindsight is helpful. But, hopefully in the next one.
So much happened after I got out that was so different from when I was in.

Watching episode 4, I turned it off when Coyote started telling us about how the mean old FBI sabotaged the noble protesters. I'll hold my nose and try again in a while.

Anyway, someone on the production team is hep, because I do believe I heard a brief part of Miles Davis' soundtrack for Louis Malle's Elevator to the Gallows, some of the coolest music ever recorded.

You are right Para. I had closed captioning turned on and the musical pieces were identified.

Despite my misgivings, I'm watching. Nam was too big a part of my life then to ignore this ambitious effort. Not many of the facts are new, nor is the bias.

When talking about college deferments, they showed a picture of a young Bill Clinton. I was shocked...

...until about two minutes later, when they were talking about how the affluent got their deferment from being in the National Guard. Guess who they pictured for that?

Yep. I should have known better- these assholes showed Bill Clinton and showed him first, only so they could then show GWB.

I've got your number, Ken.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

We prosecuted that war very poorly, and I think we'd have been better off never getting involved. that said, once you're in it you should fight to win.

Agree with the first part, but I'm not sure there was any winning it. Has anyone other than guerrillas ever won a guerrilla war?

And, while fighting to stop communism was a laudable thing, would it have been that big a deal if they'd have taken control of all of SE Asia? After 57,000 dead they ended up with Vietnam anyway and it didn't really hurt us or democracy in the years hence. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but if Truman had just said, "fuck 'em" way back when, we'd have been better off if we'd just let them have Korea and Vietnam (and potentially Laos and Cambodia). Lots of good men would still be alive.

In tonight's episode, they're showing some of the iconic still images of the war, shot by the likes of David Douglas Duncan.



I didn't realize that he is still alive, age 101. Incredible.

http://blog.joemcnally.com/201...aordinary-gentleman/

I saw the episode about the battle in the Ia Drang Valley. I thought they did a good job describing the battle and Col. Moore and the Cav. Incidentally I heard he passed away earlier this year.

A little off topic. My dad was in the military and we were stationed at Clark Air Base. I was in 4th grade at the time. I remember one day the teacher took one of my classmates out of class. I didn't know why at the time but I found out later that his father was killed when his plane crashed in Vietnam.

So far I've watched the first two.
They do a good job of telling the often overlooked history from WW2 to the early 60's.
That time frame really sets the stage for what went wrong but why we got involved in the first place. Following the French is the lead in but misunderstanding the locals was what really made it unwinnable.
Considering who made it, I thought it was pretty even handed.

It seems to me that all they are doing is telling us about defeat after defeat after defeat. The enemy kicks our ass, then "melts into the jungle." How many times has this been said? "Disappeared into the jungle", "Melted into the jungle", "Slipped away in the middle of the night", etc.
How magical, illusive, skilled and wise the North Vietnamese were, huh? You stupid Americans.

Burns has nothing good to say about our involvement. It's all negative, negative, negative.

In hindsight, we shouldn't have become involved, but Goddamn, stop with the "Americans are bad and we were completely wrong and stupid and the enemy outfought us at every turn."

Burns, Coyote and all their leftist ilk still, after all these years, can't get past it. They now have to demonstrate to us that they were right and anyone who supported the war is a fool or a war mongerer. All those young Americans who died in this conflict- Burns is spitting on them by telling all of us- all those who remember the war and all those who lost family members in the war- that it was all for nothing, that their deaths were in vain, and any victories won, were pointless.

I'm not asking if anyone else sees this in this series. I've watched every minute of every episode aired so far and it is as plain as day to me.