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Black Rain Ordnance Fallout AR-10... experience, opinions, concerns? Login/Join 
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I am interested in an AR-10 for my next purchase. Scarce as hens teeth around here. My local Cabelas has a BRO Fallout 10 behind the counter for $2k, but I know very little about it. Web site isn't much help either, nor YouTube. Any opinions, experience or concerns about BRO ARs? I don't really need a high dollar AR-10, and am very happy with the Ruger MPR I bought last winter.

TIA!
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I always thought Black Rain was a cheesy company. If you're wanting a, in my opinion, damn nice AR10 for under 2k, look no further than the Sig 716. That BRO looks a bit better than something just cobbled together (Diamondback DB10), but I think the Sig is a nicer gun, for potentially less money.
 
Posts: 420 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
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I've used many BRO parts (and I only build high(er) quality rifles) but never a whole weapon as I build my own.
IMO (unlike KSGM) I have always viewed them as a quality product.
I even talked with the folks at the NRA Conference about their process and goods.
SO for me I would have no problem with a BRO weapon.
I sure wouldn't use them if I thought they were inferior or low quality.
YMMV
 
Posts: 19705 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you both. Hoping for more input.
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a complete 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 with BRO parts, plus a 6 Creedmoor upper. Parts are:
- Black Rain lower & uppers, Norguard finish
- Black Rain complete BCGs, nickel boron finish
- Black Rain rails
- Magpul PRS stock
- Wilson Combat trigger
- Krieger barrel for the 6.5CM (chambered by Krieger), Bartlein barrel for the 6CM (chambered by Craddock Precision)
- NF ATACR 5-25x optics for both uppers
My local 'smith assembled the parts. He stated the BRO components were some of the best he's seen for an AR10. The upper I used for the 6.5CM had a wonky spring on the ejection port cover, but that was easily fixed. I can't speak for the complete BRO rifle, but the core of mine is BRO and it works really, really well.

AR10s are difficult to shoot accurately. There's a crapload of gas and a heavy BCG moving during the cycle process, and you really notice this in comparison to an AR15. AR15s and bolt actions are much, much easier to shoot accurately. I've shot my 6.5CM against a KAC SR25 in 308, a JP AR10 in 6.5CM, and a GA Precision GAP-10 in 6.5CM in a long distance precision course. The accuracy of these platforms were GAP first, my BRO build, JP, and KAC bringing up the rear. The GAP is just about as good as it gets. My BRO build and the JP were pretty similar. The KAC was noticeably back, but it also was in 308.

I know my AR10s are over gassed when suppressed, even with rifle length plus 2" gas systems. But they shoot and cycle just fine. I haven't shot them as much as I'd like. I got them for semi-auto PRS events, but those aren't really held in my neck of the woods. I consider the 6.5CM upper to be a 3/4-ish MOA rifle out to 500-600 yards. I consider the 6CM upper to be a 1/2-ish MOA rifle out to 500-600 yards. I find the 6CM's lower recoil easier to deal with, and that's probably why I shoot it a little better. I use Hornady factory ELD ammo -- 140 grain for the 6.5, 108 grain for the 6.

I suspect a complete Black Rain AR10 would be a pretty nice rifle. I really don't know much about the quality of their barrels, however.
 
Posts: 7067 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, the folks with real-world experience have taken over. My assessment of the BRO brand was (and is) based on branding and aesthetics. I don't care for the way the guns look, ejection port covers that say "let it rain", or biohazard logos. None of that effects performance, but it is all certainly, IMO, cheesy, as I initially stated. Sounds like the guns and parts are good though.

My experience with the AR10 platform is with a Colt 901 modular carbine that I have had for about eight years. It is a badass gun, and I highly recommend it. Out of the OP's price qualifications though, so I didn't mention it in my initial response, and instead mentioned a gun a friend has, and has had good experiences with.
 
Posts: 420 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KSGM:
Well, the folks with real-world experience have taken over. My assessment of the BRO brand was (and is) based on branding and aesthetics. I don't care for the way the guns look, ejection port covers that say "let it rain", or biohazard logos. None of that effects performance, but it is all certainly, IMO, cheesy, as I initially stated. Sounds like the guns and parts are good though.

My experience with the AR10 platform is with a Colt 901 modular carbine that I have had for about eight years. It is a badass gun, and I highly recommend it. Out of the OP's price qualifications though, so I didn't mention it in my initial response, and instead mentioned a gun a friend has, and has had good experiences with.


I completely understand your take on the aesthetics, and largely agree. Not having had a chance to check it out in hand I am not sure how much bling is on it. Don't mind a little but skulls & such are just a bit too much (orange grips on my S2O and TSO are cool)! Ideally I would like to find something like a Springfield Armory Saint Victor, and unfortunately passed on a SIG 716i 6 weeks ago because I don't have alot of knowledge of ARs. I am in no hurry as I recently bought a new Colt Python, a bit of an expenditure. However if it wasn't terribly gaudy & was well thought of it would be worth checking out.

The above observations about the AR-10 being kind of difficult to shoot is interesting. I own only one AR, a Ruger MPR which I really like and was a good value. I am a walnut/steel kind of guy and own 4 M1 Garands, an M1a and a couple of Springfield 03-a3s but am pretty impressed with the shootability of the MPR. Maybe I should rethink the notion of wanting an AR-10?
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Black Rain 6.5 Creedmoor.



And the 6 Creedmoor.

 
Posts: 7067 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
The above observations about the AR-10 being kind of difficult to shoot is interesting.

It is quite difficult for the majority of shooters to consistently shoot a semi-auto with great accuracy. People talk about "sub MOA if I do my part". Yeah right, every time I see that, I think once in a blue moon trophy groups. To shoot an AR15 or an AR10 with great accuracy every time out requires disciplined shooting.

I don't have target pictures with my 6.5CM. Here's one of the few I have with the 6CM. 5 rounds at 525 yards, with Hornady ELD 108. Variable winds from my left. 2-3/8" vertical dispersion, which is what really counts. 4" horizontal dispersion, which is a result of my errors in reading the wind.

 
Posts: 7067 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Years ago I saw a Black Rain rifle with spiral fluting. It looked like it was done by a drunk beaver. Wouldn’t spend your money on it.
 
Posts: 9338 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Years ago I saw a Black Rain rifle with spiral fluting. It looked like it was done by a drunk beaver. Wouldn’t spend your money on it.


Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin. As I recall it's nothing like that.... Wink
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For fun I googled it, looks like he’s still employed. https://www.firearms4less.com/...6-skulls-barrel.html
 
Posts: 9338 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
It is quite difficult for the majority of shooters to consistently shoot a semi-auto with great accuracy. People talk about "sub MOA if I do my part". Yeah right, every time I see that, I think once in a blue moon trophy groups. To shoot an AR15 or an AR10 with great accuracy every time out requires disciplined shooting.

I don't have target pictures with my 6.5CM. Here's one of the few I have with the 6CM. 5 rounds at 525 yards, with Hornady ELD 108. Variable winds from my left. 2-3/8" vertical dispersion, which is what really counts. 4" horizontal dispersion, which is a result of my errors in reading the wind.


That's some damn fine shooting. I don't have much experience with bolt guns, so I have never had an issue shooting an AR10 for accuracy, as I have no other experience to compare it to. I don't believe in fancy triggers either, so all my shooting is with a "mil-spec". I have managed to shoot some great groups with the 901, and I have reliable DOPE out to 500m. Regardless of what the OP gets, the main thing is getting out there and shooting. Find the ammo the gun likes, get good DOPE, and then buy some more of that ammo. A lot of people have "DMR" builds; maybe not so many of them have the gun squared-away to were it's actually a useful tool.
 
Posts: 420 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....


Like I said earlier, those Sigs seem really nice to me. Fit and finish is awesome; rock solid. I have not shot one for accuracy though. It is a 16" gun, perhaps intended as more of a "battle rifle". All depends on the quality of the barrel, I suppose. My 901 is configured similarly, and actually isn't as solid as the 716s I have handled, but shoots very well, and can fill the DMR role confidently. Maybe research accuracy reports on the 716. Still, for the price, I think it's hard to beat it.
 
Posts: 420 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KSGM:
quote:
Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....


Like I said earlier, those Sigs seem really nice to me. Fit and finish is awesome; rock solid. I have not shot one for accuracy though. It is a 16" gun, perhaps intended as more of a "battle rifle". All depends on the quality of the barrel, I suppose. My 901 is configured similarly, and actually isn't as solid as the 716s I have handled, but shoots very well, and can fill the DMR role confidently. Maybe research accuracy reports on the 716. Still, for the price, I think it's hard to beat it.


It looks like a really good value, and for the most part gets pretty good reviews. Not really sure about the proprietary parts on it, especially the BCG and charging handle. Bit of a turn off although I doubt at the end of the day it would be an issue.
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
quote:
Originally posted by KSGM:
quote:
Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....


Like I said earlier, those Sigs seem really nice to me. Fit and finish is awesome; rock solid. I have not shot one for accuracy though. It is a 16" gun, perhaps intended as more of a "battle rifle". All depends on the quality of the barrel, I suppose. My 901 is configured similarly, and actually isn't as solid as the 716s I have handled, but shoots very well, and can fill the DMR role confidently. Maybe research accuracy reports on the 716. Still, for the price, I think it's hard to beat it.


It looks like a really good value, and for the most part gets pretty good reviews. Not really sure about the proprietary parts on it, especially the BCG and charging handle. Bit of a turn off although I doubt at the end of the day it would be an issue.




Until sig discontinued the rifle and making parts for it like they typically do and you have something break. Never trust sig with something proprietary on a rifle
 
Posts: 3262 | Registered: December 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I just read 6 pages on the SIG over at ARF.COM. General consensus is that it is probably the best value for the money of most common manufacturers. Advantages are the heavier barrel, ambi controls, notched rail and extensive testing done by the Indian army due to it being selected as a battle rifle by India. Cons are that its a bit on the heavy side, no adjustable gas block, proprietary parts (seemingly not that unusual since there doesn’t appear to be a set of standards for AR-10 battle rifles, and less of an issue because it is a contract piece ensuring parts availability in the foreseeable future) and non standard bolt carrier group and charging handle.
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Troy, MI | Registered: October 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it's safe to state that the DPMS pattern is the most common of the AR10s. Not universal like and AR15, but the most common form. Which means a fair amount of options for changes and replacements. Parts wear and fail. The future brings changes and improvements, especially if multiple companies compete for market share of a common platform.

Look carefully at Sig's history in long guns. How long a configuration exists on the market. How well they support upgrades. Can past models be upgraded, or do them become obsolete? How well have they delivered on promises with previous rifles?

I researched AR10s for months before I began buying parts. Political issues, gun market panics, and pricing challenges dragged out my parts buying to roughly a 2-year period. I feel it was worth it.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider buying a Sig rifle, of any type. If one was given to me, I'd sell it as soon as market conditions warranted a sale. I have no confidence that Sig will support a product for an extended period. I have even less confidence that the aftermarket will support proprietary Sig parts, especially if Sig drops a product line.
 
Posts: 7067 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by KSGM:
I don't believe in fancy triggers either, so all my shooting is with a "mil-spec". I have managed to shoot some great groups with the 901, and I have reliable DOPE out to 500m.

There's a difference between "some great groups" and repeatably placing shot after shot on intended targets, day in, day out.

I don't consider a Wilson Combat trigger a "fancy trigger". Expensive yes, but not fancy. The break on Wilson triggers is clean, crisp, and consistent. There is virtually no difference in the feel from one pull to the next. The pull weights are amazingly consistent from one to the next -- confirmed by both personal feel and a Lyman gauge. There's no grit, no stacking prior to the break, no mushy uncertainty of when the break will occur. Trigger resets are short and positive. One can easily hear, see, and feel the reset.

Every great firearms instructor will state that keeping the sights on the target all the way through the break (and as long as possible in the recoil cycle) is the best method for accurate shooting. It doesn't matter if the firearm is a handgun, rifle, or shotgun. The better the trigger, the easier it is to do. A great trigger doesn't have to have pull weights measured in ounces. My Wilsons break right around 4 pounds. I've shot them in at 100 degrees in the desert, at below zero temps during winter storms, in rain, in dust storms, and a bunch of more pleasant conditions in between. They have performed flawlessly.

A trigger is the "go switch" for firing a cartridge. Everything else follows. I don't compromise the rest of my rifle system with second-rate optics, barrels, or ammo. I sure won't compromise my rifles with mil-spec triggers.
 
Posts: 7067 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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