quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
There's a difference between "some great groups" and repeatably placing shot after shot on intended targets, day in, day out.

I understand that. I meant that I have shot some groups that look quite slick indeed, and make the gun and me seem like a whiz; and then I have shot plenty that are likely actually representative of the rifle's (and my) average abilities. I am confident enough in my DOPE to promise you or anyone else that I can lay down at any range inside of 500m (provided I have an LRF to tell me where I am at), and hit a twelve inch plate "day in and day out". I was only making those contributions to the thread to illustrate that I wasn't speaking from a perspective of complete ignorance and speculation, concerning the OP.

*Edited to add that I do not have DOPE in every potential condition or elevation or angle. So, my comment on my confidence is not absolute.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
A trigger is the "go switch" for firing a cartridge. Everything else follows. I don't compromise the rest of my rifle system with second-rate optics, barrels, or ammo. I sure won't compromise my rifles with mil-spec triggers.

I made the trigger comment to further reinforce a point you mentioned, concerning some people being discouraged by the AR10 experience. I meant to illustrate how all aspects can be overcome. I 100% agree with your comments about sights on target through the break, and quality "heavier" triggers. I have done enough shooting with mil-spec to be confident enough that I don't even consider trigger upgrades, and likely never will.

Concerning the OP, I don't have a dog in the fight. I mentioned the Sig because it seems, to me, to be a damn fine current production AR10, at a good price. I don't have any brand loyalty, and have dealt enough with Swiss 55X and US 556 guns to completely agree with comments about Sig's questionable rifle history. I do think that it's potentially splitting hairs on a $1500 gun that will likely never have an issue though. Hell, go with the BRO. Fritz has more experience in the long-range arena than other contributors to the thread, it seems, and speaks highly of the brand.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
There's a difference between "some great groups" and repeatably placing shot after shot on intended targets, day in, day out.

I understand that. I meant that I have shot some groups that look quite slick indeed, and make the gun and me seem like a whiz; and then I have shot plenty that are likely actually representative of the rifle's (and my) average abilities. I am confident enough in my DOPE to promise you or anyone else that I can lay down at any range inside of 500m (provided I have an LRF to tell me where I am at), and hit a twelve inch plate "day in and day out". I was only making those contributions to the thread to illustrate that I wasn't speaking from a perspective of complete ignorance and speculation, concerning the OP.

*Edited to add that I do not have DOPE in every potential condition or elevation or angle. So, my comment on my confidence is not absolute.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
A trigger is the "go switch" for firing a cartridge. Everything else follows. I don't compromise the rest of my rifle system with second-rate optics, barrels, or ammo. I sure won't compromise my rifles with mil-spec triggers.

I made the trigger comment to further reinforce a point you mentioned, concerning some people being discouraged by the AR10 experience. I meant to illustrate how all aspects can be overcome. I 100% agree with your comments about sights on target through the break, and quality "heavier" triggers. I have done enough shooting with mil-spec to be confident enough that I don't even consider trigger upgrades, and likely never will.

Concerning the OP, I don't have a dog in the fight. I mentioned the Sig because it seems, to me, to be a damn fine current production AR10, at a good price. I don't have any brand loyalty, and have dealt enough with Swiss 55X and US 556 guns to completely agree with comments about Sig's questionable rifle history. I do think that it's potentially splitting hairs on a $1500 gun that will likely never have an issue though. Hell, go with the BRO. Fritz has more experience in the long-range arena than other contributors to the thread, it seems, and speaks highly of the brand.

I appreciate all input here. Since I don't forsee ever shooting this rifle, or anything for that matter beyond 2-300 yards or taking it into 'battle' much of this is really academic on my part. Just want to try to make a good purchase for my money. While I have shot some Garand matches at 200 yards and did pretty well for a duffer those days are gone, as is my eyesight, back, right shoulder and hands due to the ravages of age and occupational hazards. I punch paper primarily, and like fine machinery. While I have become a bit of a trigger snob in the pistols I have purchased lately I am no stranger to service type triggers and can do fairly well with them. I am sure that for my uses the SIG would serve me well and seems to have some very favorable features. Hard to say the same of the BRO since I can't really find specs for this specific model.

Thanks to all for your input. May have to get to Cabelas to check out the BRO when there is actually some help behind the counter.

Not really any info of the BR rifle. But in general I would say $2000 is a hefty price for a AR10 style rifle. Of course it depends a ton on features as you can certainly spend much much more. Might just look at the DPMS rifles before you buy. You can get a really good shooter and have lots left for access. and upgrades, optics etc. Just a thought. I went PSA. I do not have a good feel yet as I am doing other things right now. But the pricing was too good to pass up. And I did not have much $ but definitely want one while the getting was good. Good luck, get one!

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
I am sure that for my uses the SIG would serve me well and seems to have some very favorable features. Hard to say the same of the BRO since I can't really find specs for this specific model.

IMO, pretty easy to find BRO specs via Google. And this is likely more info on specs than what Sig has on their website. So...what are the features that the 716i has that a BRO doesn't? This is just one google search result.

BRO Fallout specs

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
those days are gone, as is my eyesight, back, right shoulder and hands due to the ravages of age and occupational hazards

In this case, a light-ish weight 308-caliber rifle probably isn't the best idea for you. Consider a caliber with lower recoil. AR10s can be found in 6.5 Creedmoor & 260 Remy (1st step in reduced recoil), or 6 Creedmoor & 243 Win (even more recoil reduction). Add a suppressor for significant recoil reduction, for any caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
I don't forsee ever shooting this rifle, or anything for that matter beyond 2-300 yards

The fundamentals of shooting a rifle apply whether the target is at 25, 250, or 1250 yards. Increasing distances to target amplifies accuracy errors and exposes the bullet to additional environmental factors. But if there is a weakness in the system (rifle, ammo, shooter), inaccuracy will exist at all target distances.

Thank you for your time and information provided.

I have been to the web page provided. If you simply go to the BRO site this rifle isn’t listed, at least that I have been able to find. You have to search for the specific model and this page is offered. The actual rifle in stock at my nearby Cabelas isn’t identical to the one on the web page either. The barrel length is listed at either 16” or 18” on the Cabelas web page. Therefore there is some confusion as to the specs of this rifle on the web. Even a search on YouTube results in videos that are at least a few years old if not more.

The specs listed are certainly helpful provided they are accurate, which is in question since it is a Cabelas exclusive. Since it appears BRO is more in the line of a boutique manufacturer as best as I can determine it is difficult to discern if BRO manufactures to DPMS standards, which SIG clearly does not. I would assume they do but don’t know for sure. Also don’t know if it is a thick or thin barrel, or how secure the rail assembly is as I understand at times they aren’t the most secure. Other questions… is the bcg proprietary (the SIG is), is the upper and lower widely compatible? My understanding is that the SIG isn’t. This kind of information is available on the SIG but not on the BRO as best as I can tell.

How much of an issue this may all play in my time shooting it? I don’t tend to shoot the hell out of my stuff so it may never be. Where it may come into play is if I ever choose to resell it.

As to whether I should stick with a .308 there is no question. I don’t want another caliber and already own several M1 Garands, Springfield rifles and a couple hunting rifles in 30.06, and an M1a and M1 Garand in .308. Recoil isn’t the issue. A potentially damaged rotator cuff is, a common problem for long time heavy equipment mechanics as are damaged hands and back issues. I have been shooting large caliber rifles for about 40 years. I can deal with a .308. The physical limitations don’t lend themselves to doing the kind of competition shooting I had done years ago. I shoot for fun. Besides all that I live in Michigan where the opportunity for long range shooting is pretty rare.

BRO doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with info.
I don't think I'd spend that kind of money to find out what it's all about.

There are a few more options now than when I was looking for an AR10.
I picked up a Ruger SR762 several years ago for $1600 and thought that was taking a big chance.
It's been discontinued for a couple of years and it had better keep chugging along.

But lately I have been wanting ditch the piston for DI with an 18" barrel.
Being no one is compatible with just about everything is nutz.

Have you checked out Aero precision?
Their .308 AR seems to work well.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.c...vers/complete-uppers
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.c...vers/complete-uppers
BCG, charging handle and stock to round it out.
Probably around $1500 all in.

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....

I had a Gen 1 716, and aside from it being a pig, I loved it. Ran 100%…. I eventually got a Scar, and sold it. A couple weeks ago I saw the 716 Tread at a local shop. Very slick, slim, and trim. I think it was $1500ish. I’d take that chance!

quote:

Originally posted by powermad:
BRO doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with info.
I don't think I'd spend that kind of money to find out what it's all about.

There are a few more options now than when I was looking for an AR10.
I picked up a Ruger SR762 several years ago for $1600 and thought that was taking a big chance.
It's been discontinued for a couple of years and it had better keep chugging along.

But lately I have been wanting ditch the piston for DI with an 18" barrel.
Being no one is compatible with just about everything is nutz.

Have you checked out Aero precision?
Their .308 AR seems to work well.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.c...vers/complete-uppers
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.c...vers/complete-uppers
BCG, charging handle and stock to round it out.
Probably around $1500 all in.

Thanks for the info! I have heard about Aero ARs, but have never seen one I don’t think. I asked about the BRO and about the SIG because they are locally available. Maybe they aren’t the best options for me in the end and I should be patient.

quote:

Originally posted by pepsiblue:

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Hmmmm.... Dunhams near me has a SIG 716i for $1500.....

I had a Gen 1 716, and aside from it being a pig, I loved it. Ran 100%…. I eventually got a Scar, and sold it. A couple weeks ago I saw the 716 Tread at a local shop. Very slick, slim, and trim. I think it was $1500ish. I’d take that chance!

Thanks for the input. It seems there is much more in selecting an AR-10 than I banked on ?

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
The actual rifle in stock at my nearby Cabelas isn’t identical to the one on the web page either. The barrel length is listed at either 16” or 18” on the Cabelas web page. Therefore there is some confusion as to the specs of this rifle on the web.

I can determine it is difficult to discern if BRO manufactures to DPMS standards, which SIG clearly does not. I would assume they do but don’t know for sure. Also don’t know if it is a thick or thin barrel, or how secure the rail assembly is as I understand at times they aren’t the most secure. Other questions… is the bcg proprietary (the SIG is), is the upper and lower widely compatible? My understanding is that the SIG isn’t. This kind of information is available on the SIG but not on the BRO as best as I can tell.

Black Rain's AR10 is DPMS compatible. Understand that there are 2 DPMS-compatible upper receiver specs. BRO uses DPMS low. The difference between low and high is about 1/16" in upper receiver/rail height. For a complete BRO rifle, this is likely a moot point. For someone building a rifle from components, this is an important point. Mixing low and high DPMS receiver/rail still works, but the rail will be 1/16" higher or lower than the upper receiver.

Being DPMS compatible means that the entire BCG is DPMS compatible.

My BRO rails fit very securely to the upper receiver. When I shoot from a bipod, I substantially weight the bipod -- no problems. When I shoot from barriers, I jam the rifle even harder in the barrier -- no problems. My local 'smith who assembled both uppers, stated that the fit of BRO parts were among the best he's seen. I have two versions of the rails -- the 6.5 uses the older Black Rain quad rail, the 6CM uses the new MLok hybrid handguard. Both work perfectly.

Cabela's likely requests a specific barrel for their model. Many large retailers require this of the smaller rifle manufacturers. You must ask Cabela personnel for barrel details. I suspect it's a middle-of-the-road barrel profile. IMO, avoid a pencil profile or a fluted barrel in an AR10. The heavier the profile the better.

As for recoil issues, you will shoot more accurately with a lower recoiling rifle -- all other components being equal. Furthermore, a lower recoiling caliber will aggravate injuries less.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Personally, I wouldn't even consider buying a Sig rifle, of any type. If one was given to me, I'd sell it as soon as market conditions warranted a sale. I have no confidence that Sig will support a product for an extended period. I have even less confidence that the aftermarket will support proprietary Sig parts, especially if Sig drops a product line.

Read this carefully. It’s good advice.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Adefender:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Personally, I wouldn't even consider buying a Sig rifle, of any type. If one was given to me, I'd sell it as soon as market conditions warranted a sale. I have no confidence that Sig will support a product for an extended period. I have even less confidence that the aftermarket will support proprietary Sig parts, especially if Sig drops a product line.

Read this carefully. It’s good advice.

Yeah, I understand that. However the fact that SIG has a very large contract with the Indian military, roughly 150k units, and therefore will have to provide support for those rifles over a number of years kind of supports the notion that this one may be around for a while. Maybe not….who knows?? Also, considering that a significant number of guns in my safe are constructed of parts that are to a large extent proprietary, how much should that weigh in my decision, especially since I don’t shoot the hell out of any of my guns? Why should proprietary parts be more of a significant factor in an AR than in my Browning BAR semi-auto rifle, or my CZ457 American, or my CZ TSO?

Obviously I would prefer to spend my money on something that would be more standardized, all else being equal. Of course all things are not equal. Would the advantage of purportedly more standardized parts in the BRO for example outweigh the $600 difference in price over the SIG? Of course other factors come in to play. I really liked the BRO when I checked it out yesterday but found it even heavier than the SIG, especially in the muzzle. It was also visually a nicer looking rifle, much more subtle than some BRO rifles I have seen. Interestingly enough it does not have a forward bolt assist, probably not a huge deal for my uses. Both have a 16” barrel, shorter than I would prefer, and on neither could I try the trigger. I think I will make the 100 mile round trip drive to a very large, well stocked gun store late next week to see what they may have.

Thank you to all who have chimed in. It is much appreciated.

Proprietary parts are an issue if the manufacturer is the only source. Sig doesn't have a good track record on long-term support for rifles. There's no guarantee that the Indian military contract will be long-term. It could be cancelled by either party.

A 16" barrel isn't out of the ordinary for 308 caliber AR10. 308 Win muzzle velocity doesn't suffer as much per inch of barrel length change, as compared to 6.5mm and 6mm bore calibers that are based on a 308-sized case. Unless you really step up to a true precision AR10, 16" and 18" barrels should be the most common. I don't think you have much experience with flight ballistics and the changes which occur from barrel length & muzzle velocity.

With a reasonably good barrel and factory Federal GMM 175 ammo, I ballpark muzzle velocities to be 2650 fps for a 20" barrel, 2600 for an 18", and 2550 for a 16". I ran the assumptions through JBM ballistics at an air density of 3,000 feet, with a 100-yard zero.

At 250 yards, the 16" has 8.0" of drop and 4.6" of lateral drift with a 10mph crosswind.
The 18" has 7.5" of drop and 4.4" of drift.
The 20" has 7.1" of drop and 4.3" of drift.
These are insignificant differences at 250 yards for the given platform. A long barrel isn't necessary to shoot accurately at such distance. I have 16" barrel AR15s which regularly produce 2" to 3" 5-round groups at 300 yards with factory ammo. My AR15s have muzzle velocities in this ballpark, but with bullets which have lower ballistic coefficients.

In my experience, AR10s often don't have forward bolt assists. Neither of my Black Rain uppers has it. My newest AR15 uppers don't have a forward assist, either. The only time I've needed a forward assist is during training courses, when the instructors had us shoot dirty rifles with no lube and crappy ammo. Never needed the forward assist with good ammo and a reasonably cared for rifle.

quote:

I don't think you have much experience with flight ballistics and the changes which occur from barrel length & muzzle velocity.

While I really appreciate your specific knowledge when it comes to the AR-10, it is really difficult to come to any conclusion but to surmise that you think that I am a complete idiot. At age 56, being a college grad & having been a shooter for over 40 years, believe me when I say that I am well aware of the effects of barrel length on velocity, for example. This is just one example of this kind of thing from this thread.

Again, your specific knowledge about the AR-10 is GREATLY APPRECIATED. However, it would be really appreciated if you could offer your input based on the assumption that there is some standard baseline of knowledge present.

I like a forward assist. I have used them in the dirty situation fritz described, and I like that they enable you to ride the bolt forward slowly and quietly, and then nudge it home.

After a lot of research and thought I think I am going to take the valuable advice offered by Fritz and buy the Black Rain Ordnance AR10 available at my local Cabelas and Bass Pro, due to several factors. While I really liked the value offered by the SIG rifle, and was actually pretty impressed with the fit-n-finish and the rail, the whole proprietary thing sticks in the back of my mind. With the BRO I know that problem is minimal at most, and that it is made of some top of the line materials, billet uppers and lowers for example. I did manage to find one at a gun shop about a 100 mile round trip away that has a 20” barrel but for several reasons I will opt for the 16” barreled rifle at Cabelas. I have to say though I wasn’t overly impressed with the trigger on that rifle, not as good as that on my Ruger MPR. Not a difficult fix know, but hopefully not necessary on such an expensive rifle. And while I am not exactly thrilled with the ‘battle-worn FDE” (almost bronze) finish it isn’t too much bling and is kind of growing on me. I will post pictures when I pick it up in a few days.

Thank you all for your time and advice. It is much appreciated.

**Update 12/21**

After about 6 weeks of back & forth, some of which took place on this very thread I decided to take the advice provided by Fritz and buy the BRO Fallout 10 from my local Bass Pro this past weekend, finally picking it up yesterday (12/20). Being able to buy it for 15% off and getting 0% financing was the deciding factor. The SIG was a very attractive alternative but the proprietary components turned me off in the end. I really liked the Springfield Armory Saint Victor, and almost bought it a couple of times but decided against it in the end.

Last evening I mounted my Vortex Strike Eagle 1x8 using a Vortex cantilever mount and took it to the range this morning. It is a very impressive piece of firearm, very sturdy and well machined. However for the life of me I can’t figure out why Black Rain Ordnance wouldn’t put a decent trigger on it! It is heavy, with lots of travel and tons of creep. Very difficult to shoot accurately with it. The trigger on my Ruger MPR is way better, at less than half the price. I will give it some time before making a decision to replace it. It is a very soft shooter for a .308 and has lots of potential for being very accurate.

I wish I could report that it ran 100% for me today, but it didn’t. I suffered several (6-7!!) light primer strikes and a few FTE in just about 20 rounds fired. After a few light strikes I removed the bolt to make sure I had assembled it correctly (I had) and then removed a chunk of brass from under the extractor. It seemed to improve somewhat at first but still was not reliable. Part of the issue may very well be that I was shooting Aguila 7.62x51 ammo through it which has proven problematic for me while trying to shoot it from my .308 M1 Garand. It appears to be marginally weak ammo. The only semi-auto I own that will shoot it reliably is my M1a. I did switch to some .308 reloaded ammo (using Lapua brass and 155 gr Lapua Scenar bullets) acquired from the CMP which had been 100% reliable, but still experienced a couple of light primer strikes with it.

Can’t really condemn the rifle at this point as I know I was shooting ammo that isn’t the best initially. The light primer strikes are a concern though. Every round fired on the 2nd try. Better ammo and some judicious breaking in may resolve some of these issues. If not then I will contact BRO. The rifle was cleaned and lubed before going to the range although I probably could have done a better job making sure the chamber was spic-n-span. The gas block isn’t adjustable so shooting the Aguila ammo isn’t an option with this rifle, at least until it is ‘broken in’. Time will tell.

If you're getting light strikes on an AR, the first thing to check is whether the hammer spring was installed upside down.

The legs should be on top, not on the bottom.

Your light primer strikes are definitely disappointing. I don't recall experiencing them on centerfire ammo, thus I am doing some guessing here.

IMO there shouldn't be a break in period on an AR10. Clean & lube the BCG. Make certain there's a bit of oil on the firing pin, and that the firing pin goes all the way forward. Meaning that it can really dent a case. It's possible that there's some gunk that doesn't allow the firing pin to move all the way forward. You can check & clean the chamber, although I wouldn't bet that's the root cause.

I've heard people state that some military primers are really hard, which can lead to light strikes. I don't know if that applies to the ammo you used.

I know nothing of BRO triggers. I have a Wilson Combat single stage in mine -- it is outstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
If you're getting light strikes on an AR, the first thing to check is whether the hammer spring was installed upside down.

The legs should be on top, not on the bottom.

Thanks.... I will check that, but I didn't take that apart.