quote:

Originally posted by 10X-Shooter:
Having owned two Scar 16S’s and a 17S I can share that once I bought the Scar 17S, the 16S’s became irrelevant to me and I sold/traded them.

Thanks for the input. I dunno, I think having a rifle in .308 makes a lot of sense, and for what the SCAR 17 is, it's the gun to beat in that caliber. That said, I had an actual HK91 I got rid of, I have a nice M14 built up out of USGI parts, I have M1's. I've got .30 caliber service rifles. Yes, the SCAR beats them for what they are. I guess I'm just not really all that interested in another .308 if I'm being completely honest.

I don't reload, and I know I should. Until I cross that threshold, I can't see spending a lot of time and money on more expensive calibers when a 5.56 does 90% of what I need a rifle cartridge for. Outside of that, it's the M14 with a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x. And again there, I'm sure I could do better than that, I'm just not feeling the need to right now.

quote:

Originally posted by 10X-Shooter:
If I were looking to buy another 5.56 right now, I get another AUG NATO and a CZ Bren 2. Already have a AUG NATO and it’s so much better than I expected.

Now, the AUG NATO definitely is an option I haven't talked about much in this thread. The AUG is iconic, and it's THE bullpup to beat (I know, X95, but if it comes down to it, it's following the pack for me). I own two FN bullpups, and while they're nice, the AUG is supposedly all the things the F2000 falls short of. I like bullpups, that's already decided for me. I think the AUG, especially in the NATO config and even though I haven't expressly stated it yet, is probably in the top three of my choices. The other two choices being a SCAR 16, and whatever the hell ends up being runner-up, but looking like it may be the Bren 2. If I stumble on an amazing deal, could be an ACR. Really no telling.

Well, considering the direction this has taken, I retract my previous statement concerning the SIG 55X. If this is about owning and recreationally enjoying a contemporary 5.56 rifle that's not an AR, I say the 55X is friggen awesome; and it's a SIG, after all! The 551 is where I'd look, unless you've just gotta have the short 553, which I understand.

A Tommybuilt G36 build is another thing too. Pretty unique, and fun to shoot.

The AUG NATO is one of the more practical choices voiced, and I agree it'd be a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 10X-Shooter:
Having owned two Scar 16S’s and a 17S I can share that once I bought the Scar 17S, the 16S’s became irrelevant to me and I sold/traded them.

Thanks for the input. I dunno, I think having a rifle in .308 makes a lot of sense, and for what the SCAR 17 is, it's the gun to beat in that caliber. That said, I had an actual HK91 I got rid of, I have a nice M14 built up out of USGI parts, I have M1's. I've got .30 caliber service rifles. Yes, the SCAR beats them for what they are. I guess I'm just not really all that interested in another .308 if I'm being completely honest.

I don't reload, and I know I should. Until I cross that threshold, I can't see spending a lot of time and money on more expensive calibers when a 5.56 does 90% of what I need a rifle cartridge for. Outside of that, it's the M14 with a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x. And again there, I'm sure I could do better than that, I'm just not feeling the need to right now.

quote:

Originally posted by 10X-Shooter:
If I were looking to buy another 5.56 right now, I get another AUG NATO and a CZ Bren 2. Already have a AUG NATO and it’s so much better than I expected.

Now, the AUG NATO definitely is an option I haven't talked about much in this thread. The AUG is iconic, and it's THE bullpup to beat (I know, X95, but if it comes down to it, it's following the pack for me). I own two FN bullpups, and while they're nice, the AUG is supposedly all the things the F2000 falls short of. I like bullpups, that's already decided for me. I think the AUG, especially in the NATO config and even though I haven't expressly stated it yet, is probably in the top three of my choices. The other two choices being a SCAR 16, and whatever the hell ends up being runner-up, but looking like it may be the Bren 2. If I stumble on an amazing deal, could be an ACR. Really no telling.

The prices on the AUG’s are pretty good. Fair amount of aftermarket mods available. I owned a Microtech MSAR E4 before this Steyr AUG so I knew some of the ins and outs of running an AUG. I haven’t modified the trigger and it’s still in my top two rifles I pick to shoot and practice with because I enjoy it. Some people don’t. Highly recommend trying one if you get a chance. I’ll say this, I’m not a fan at all of striker fired pistols and even though the AUG feels similar to a striker fired gun, I was surprised I like it as much as I do.

I’ve also owned the ACR and the FS2000. For me, it wasn’t even close between the FN and the AUG. All day long I’d pick the AUG. It just handles better in so many ways. The ACR, I so wanted to like it. I followed it since Magpul started that project and it had so many things to like about it. The barrel take down was pretty cool. Only real problem I had with that rifle was it being so front heavy and the lack of support. It wasn’t Robinson Armament but still it floundered. Everyone knows that story.

I haven’t had a chance to handle the Bren 2 anywhere except at a gun show and at gun store goodie aisle. What stands out other than design is the weight. Love how light the Bren 2 is and how I wish that’s one of the rifles I’d had in the Army. So many good options, it’s a good time to be in the market for good rifles. I’ll never forget the Clintoris years of the BS AWB. If you’re ever in TN, shoot me an email and we will break them out and hit the range.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the input, and the offer.

I like the F2000. I know they have their drawbacks and the things people seem to have about them, but I really do like mine. I think the only thing I'm not a fan of anymore is that it's become heavy. I have health problems, and shit muscle tone is one of the things that comes with it. Everything is heavy now. I think I need to make weight more of a consideration than it's been so far. 7.2-7.3lbs is looking like the going rate for the SCAR and Bren 2, and that's not bad at all. Start adding stuff like sling, light, optics, etc, and it adds up fast.

I'm looking into the Bren 2 a bit more tonight. It seems to me it's the direct competitor to the SCAR 16, so I need to take a look at it.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I think I need to make weight more of a consideration than it's been so far. 7.2-7.3lbs is looking like the going rate for the SCAR and Bren 2

It's not hard to find AR15s weighing 6 to 6.5 pounds. Even BCM has some.
Finding ARs of 5 to 5.5 pounds takes a little more searching.
I seen ARs advertised under 5 pounds -- but I suspect there are some compromises to obtain this weight.

I think I should go ahead and say that a friend of mine is putting together a 654 for me. It's a long-term project and it will also be mostly for fun, but built out of quality stuff and hopefully capable of serious use. I've been on a retro kick lately, and this tickles me just so:



So, a lightweight AR is still happening. It's not a primary focus, and it won't take the place of whatever I end up getting that I've been talking about in this thread. Before anyone starts on rails and forward assists, I'll pre-empt you: I don't care.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
<snip>
I have health problems, and shit muscle tone is one of the things that comes with it. Everything is heavy now. I think I need to make weight more of a consideration than it's been so far.
<snip>

I can sympathize with you. I spent 15 weeks the hospital & rehab last summer and forced into an early retirement. I'm working out every other day but at 64 we don't recover as fast as we used to. Even with a 10-22, I don't last long un-supported and with pistols my hands/arms get tired quickly.
But as the saying goes, even a bad day at the range ...

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I think I should go ahead and say that a friend of mine is putting together a 654 for me. It's a long-term project and it will also be mostly for fun, but built out of quality stuff and hopefully capable of serious use. I've been on a retro kick lately, and this tickles me just so:

<snip>

Hey that looks like one I built a few (ok, ten...) years ago . It's got a 1/12 twist barrel so I only shoot 55gr but it's probably my favorite rifle. Light and handy. I did the 50/200 yard zero and can ding 12"x12" steel plates out to 250 offhand with ease. I even hit old standing oxygen bottles out to 450 from a rest within a a couple of shots. I like my 6720 HD rifle but I wouldn't feel under gunned if I had to grab this.

Comes in at 5 lbs 9 oz unloaded.













I bought both a SCAR 16 and 17 years ago and frankly I was underwhelmed. I gave the 17 to a buddy of mine as a retirement present (I shoot way more 5.56) but even the 16 is just meh to me. Does nothing a good AR does not. I keep it just because I like different things (same reason why I have an AUG and a CETME-L)

You'll enjoy the hell out of that 654 clone. Light and simple, the way an AR was designed to be.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
I can sympathize with you. I spent 15 weeks the hospital & rehab last summer and forced into an early retirement.

Ugh, sorry to hear it! That's rough.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
I'm working out every other day but at 64 we don't recover as fast as we used to. Even with a 10-22, I don't last long un-supported and with pistols my hands/arms get tired quickly.

Well, 39 here. End-stage liver disease. I do what I can in terms of working out, but short of a transplant, I will never be strong or fast again. I'm simply not capable of running around in a carbine course or a 3 gun shoot, so as a result, there's a fair portion of "bucket list/what would be fun?" sentiment that will go into this purchase.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
Hey that looks like one I built a few (ok, ten...) years ago .

[...]

You'll enjoy the hell out of that 654 clone. Light and simple, the way an AR was designed to be.

That looks great! Yeah, that's what I want. Light and simple, everything you need and not an ounce more than that. I have a whole pile of vintage Colt 20rd mags to go with it as well.

Five pounds, nine ounces, you're singin' my tune!

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Interesting. You have my attention. You listed what you like about the Bren 2, but I'm curious if you'd be willing to go into more detail about those things. Got pics?

I have to be honest, I don't really know much about it. I know it's relatively new to market (last few years or so anyway), I know CZ makes good stuff, I know it's an improvement on the last design, and that's about it.

It's just really what the SCAR should be. The way my eyes are if I want to shoot right handed it basically has to be a piston gun so I own damn near all of them. The SCAR needs a $325 trigger out of the gate. The CZ parts and triggers from HBI, A3 Tactical, etc are far more affordable. Also the entry price of the rifle is more bearable. Ergo's are great, weight is great. Every that I've handed it to at the range says two things:

1. What the hell is this?
2. Holy hell this thing is good!

I love the fact when you're getting near the end of a 700-1,000 round training class and the AR's begin to get sluggish and start shitting the bed the CZ is running strong!

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
JonDaddy, how's the Bren with a can?

Not sure, don't run mine suppressed. She has a VG6 Gamma brake on at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Five pounds, nine ounces, you're singin' my tune!

This is one of the reasons why it is my favorite rifle. I put it together with quality components and I would have no issue with using it hard if I needed to. I'm not lying when I say there is a good chance I'd grab this over my Colt 6720 with the Acog. I'm an iron sight guy and I can make fast and far hits with this.

FYI, when you get yours built, might want to try a National Match front sight post. I used an A2 rear aperture on this (I prefer it to the A1) and with the short sight radius (it's a Colt 14.5" pencil barrel with a pinned extended A2) I find the standard FSP to be too wide for my liking (felt that way with the M4 too but I couldn't just add a NM FSP to that lol).

So when sighting targets from 50 to 250 the combination of A2 rear and NM front gives me a good, quick picture and is fine enough to reach out a bit. Hits at 2-300 are not bad but when you get to 4-500 or so the NM front post really shines by not totally obscuring the target.

Yes it's a 14.5" carbine and not a sniper rifle, but dinging the gong that far out is fun

Best of luck to you, and I hope your health improves.

quote:

Originally posted by JonDaddy82:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Interesting. You have my attention. You listed what you like about the Bren 2, but I'm curious if you'd be willing to go into more detail about those things. Got pics?

I have to be honest, I don't really know much about it. I know it's relatively new to market (last few years or so anyway), I know CZ makes good stuff, I know it's an improvement on the last design, and that's about it.

It's just really what the SCAR should be. The way my eyes are if I want to shoot right handed it basically has to be a piston gun so I own damn near all of them. The SCAR needs a $325 trigger out of the gate. The CZ parts and triggers from HBI, A3 Tactical, etc are far more affordable. Also the entry price of the rifle is more bearable. Ergo's are great, weight is great. Every that I've handed it to at the range says two things:

1. What the hell is this?
2. Holy hell this thing is good!

I love the fact when you're getting near the end of a 700-1,000 round training class and the AR's begin to get sluggish and start shitting the bed the CZ is running strong!

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
JonDaddy, how's the Bren with a can?

Not sure, don't run mine suppressed. She has a VG6 Gamma brake on at the moment.

I disagree the Scar16 needs a $325 right out of the gate. I shoot mine with the stock trigger and like it just fine. It’s certainly not as clean as my custom ARs but it’s a Mil-spec trigger equivalent to my M4. Which I shoot just fine.

I really like the SCAR16 and if you’re in the market for something other than an AR, so far it’s my favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
I disagree the Scar16 needs a $325 right out of the gate. I shoot mine with the stock trigger and like it just fine. It’s certainly not as clean as my custom ARs but it’s a Mil-spec trigger equivalent to my M4. Which I shoot just fine.

I really like the SCAR16 and if you’re in the market for something other than an AR, so far it’s my favorite.

It's a serviceable trigger yes.

I think the difference is when using the rifle in a gun game/training with a highly accelerated round count, or trying to make precision shots out to 300-400 meters. BIG difference when you're yanking that trigger 1,000 times in a weekend brother.

Again, given my needs and uses, a new trigger isn’t something I consider the SCAR needing as a given. I’m not firing a thousand rounds on a repeated basis, let alone in one weekend, and if I did, I’m stubborn enough to make do.

That said, if I wanted to, Timney makes one that’s cheaper, and if I decide it’s just something that has to happen, then it has to happen.

I pulled the F2000 out of the safe last night and tried to objectively review it and ask myself if I really liked it enough that I was willing to hang onto it and use it as anything other than a collector’s item when they’re fetching the kind of prices they are on Gunjoker. The answer, when I get real honest with myself, is “no.” I have a local guy who’s been asking to buy it off me for two years, and I sent him a message asking if he’s still interested. We're talking trade and sale options now.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
Best of luck to you, and I hope your health improves.

Thank you, sir.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

Hope your health improves as well. There are pros and cons when considering the guns laid out. A light AR is nice because they are light. I will point out that I appreciate a well balanced gun and I think that is a benefit to the AUGs and general bullpup design. I busted my wrist during a carbine course a few years back and i will say even a light AR was hard to hold up for extended periods due to so much of the balance being forward. I missed having the weight being far closer to central/the rear so I could use my shoulder to support it.

If we drop back to SCAR16 v. AR I will say that one of the points or reasons stated when .gov didn't pick up the SCARL was that it wasn't a big leap forward in 556. I think the scars in 308 are but not so much for the 556. I'd be more likely to pick up a gun in a pattern I enjoy because I think that design is cool personally.

I'm surprised that the MCX hasn't been mentioned (at least I didn't see any). It's a bit of a boat anchor when it comes to weight, but it's a sweet shooting rifle that offers a unique take on how to launch 5.56x45 boolits downrange. I've shot early and recent examples thanks to friends and coworkers who have them, and have greatly enjoyed the experiences each time. It's also a rifle that the US war machine is seriously evaluating for specific tasks and uses, so there's a bit of that potential deployment "coolness" factor as well, if that's a thing that matters.

While SIG doesn't have a good track record when it comes to long-term support of their sales-failed and discontinued designs, the MCX right now seems far from being put out to pasture. Even at its ever loftier pricing--another six months, another $100 more eye-watering it seems--it sells very well for us and I've not heard from a customer who's had any regrets with buying one. If I wasn't so tied to and believing in the AR platform, the MCX a gun that I'd seriously consider as a possible go-to due to its kinship with my favorite subgun MPX, but where I am now with AR15s a new MCX would likely wind up mostly gathering dust bunnies right next to my MSAR and AUG. Though I admit if it weren't for the fact that I live in WA State and the ramifications of their recently established records tracking of rifle ownership and red flag laws, I probably would've bought one in the past year or two. Now if SIG were to offer stripped receivers...

As for the 16S, if it hits most if not all of anyone's bullet points, I'd say why not buy it. It doesn't have the reputation of busting optics like the Heavy does. While its looks doesn't do much for me (I personally think it's kinda dopey-looking, but that's me), it shoots decent for me though I'd dearly want to swap the trigger out as I do with most of my ARs, and I dislike how cheap feeling its UGG boot stock is. And then there's for me the 800lb parasitic cancer tumor that I will virtually avoid at all cost; I thoroughly HATE dealing with FN customer service. That's one of the worst things about my job here at the shop, when a customer brings in a faulty FN product and wants our help in remedying it.

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:
I'm surprised that the MCX hasn't been mentioned...

Well, to be fair, even if I did own one, I might suggest to hold off, as SIG just announced the MCX Gen 3 to replace the current Virtus. I tend to have a wait and see attitude, unless they are absolutely blowing out the Virtus. But I have only seen the Virtus hover around $2199.

Well, the bottom line on the MCX is I'm not going to buy a modern production SIG anything, but especially not a rifle.

My best friend owned a 556 Classic oh, about a decade ago. It was a nice one, too, not one of the problematic turds some people got. He liked it a lot, and after shooting it, so did I. Then SIG discontinued it and announced they were dropping support for it, and he offered it to me for $700. I passed. Had they not dropped the line, had they continued to improve QC and put out better rifles, I think we'd both be 556 fans today. Didn't happen that way.

SIG has the military interested, but not me. I'm not going to buy something they won't support in a year or two. Vgex says a Gen 3 is coming out, and that's right where my mind goes: "Oh, the current thing will have parts availability problems in short order." Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but that's my perception, and SIG did it to themselves. Nope. No modern production SIG anything, and especially not a rifle. Qeue someone popping in to say "Well, they sell everything they make, and they only produce stuff that sells." That's great, they don't make anything I'm gonna spend money on.

quote:

and he offered it to me for $700.

That was a good deal, even before things got stupid.

Considering the motivation for your next purchase is uniqueness, coolness, differentness, etc, I don't think parts availability really matters all that much. Any boutique or niche rifle is going to have limited parts availability, when compared to what we're used to with the AR15. Using the Sig 556 as an example, there really isn't any shortage of parts, if you're willing to look at second-hand or alternative sources (Switzerland). Considering a gun like the one you're talking about will likely be shot much less than your "workhorse" rifle(s), it's highly unlikely you'll ever wear anything out. I understand that parts availability is preferred to unavailability; if unavailability rules stuff out for you, then that's your choice. As far as the MCX is concerned, they don't do anything for me, personally; their spare parts inventory doesn't factor into that feeling though.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
That was a good deal, even before things got stupid.

It was. We've always given each other first refusal on stuff, and at family prices.

For the rest of your post, yes, and that's all fair. I'm not going to wear out any rifle I buy, honestly. I don't think I'd ever buy or shoot enough ammo through an MCX to kill one, but if my luck were such that something did shit the bed on it and I couldn't replace that part, I'd be mad at myself for choosing to buy into SIG's business model, however still unlikely the case that I'd be left holding the bag.