I'd get a 16 if I didn't have 100 irons in the fire and the coin. I don't see much downside to them.

Long time ago, I landed on an IMI Galil 386 as my last for eternity, survive the nukes with the roaches, red dawn gun. I value the folder on a rifle in this role also. The 1 drawback being it is heavy. (the Sig 551 was equal in my mind but couldn't be had.)

I picked up the SCAR 16 at the Ft Worth Gun Show the week it was released to the public and I said, "this could replace the Galil for me."

At the time it was the first rifle I thought could do it. It was super early on though and wasn't a lot of info on em. They wanted 1800 for it and I wasn't sold on the lower, etc.

I like both Scars. I actually liked the trigger that came in my 17. I was able to reliably and consistency stage it. I did replace it with a G. I wouldn't feel that pressure with the 16.

Barrel life and being able to throw another barrel on at home combined with very little upper receiver wear means you will have a rifle that will outlast you, and your kids if you want it to. Can be setup as short, mid or long. First hand experience they shoot good ammo unbelievably well, and the reliability is there. Sights are excellent. Takes G3 Pmags. Ambi if you care.

Drawbacks on it seem like price and what to do if you can't live with the rail situation. As a lefty the recip handle doesn't bother me.

Bren 2 might be a better option price wise, but CZ does not equal FN quality in my mind. I have no exp with the Bren 2, I've run a few mags through a short Bren 1. Nothing bad to say, but nothing else to say either.

I do agree with your evaluation of Sig's current business model. I don't think it's right or wrong; it's certainly annoying though. They fancy themselves as the leading edge of weapons innovation; I reckon if you want to be on the leading edge, you're going to have to be OK with more-or-less continuous updates and changes. In fiddling with my own projects, I understand that, by the time one thing finally comes to fruition, you may have made some realization in doing that thing, that drives development of a new thing. Maybe that's how it is for them.

Any thoughts on the B&T APC556? I know, spendy. If I'm going to play in the $3k+ ballpark, well... hey. With the KDG stock, a new trigger, and whatever else the SCAR "requires" right off the bat, I'm basically in APC556 territory and I can just be done with it.

Anyone with one of these things? Looked at some favorable reviews. The big con seems to be that it's Swiss, and therefore priced accordingly. Parts are crazy expensive, too, but that's the case for the SCAR as well. Not like I expect things to break, but if I want to change things out, it would be something I encounter. On paper, it looks like a lot of the same things the SCAR deals with: short rail space, reciprocating charging handle that interferes with admin functions with an optic mounted. Additionally, it looks like the receiver doesn't have enough clearance with some optic mounts, and early rifles had some issues with the gas plug seizing. The latter seems to have maybe been rectified, but the receiver hasn't changed shape. The stock isn't adjustable for length of pull, so that's a tick in the minus column, but it apparently has a very good trigger. Then again, for maybe less money overall, I'd be into a SCAR and a new trigger.

I've never SBR'ed anything, but it seems like the kind of gun that's screaming to be bought as a pistol and papered, then throw the stock on it once everything clears.

The APC, and to a lesser extent the BREN, always struck me as SCAR copies. That being said, why not just get the SCAR; it has a much larger aftermarket, and is arguably the most proven. I can't remember if it was touched on yet, but have you considered the MR556, or are you dead-set on something more not-AR? It seems to me that the nicest piston guns may be the ones that are more-or-less squeezed into the AR chassis (LMT, Haenel, 416, 6940P, POF, etc). So I guess we're back to the question of whether you're chasing a high-performance firearm, or a unique addition to the collection. Not to say the APC isn't high performance, but it seems the AR-style guns address a lot of your recurring cons associated with the guns you've mentioned.

A note on adjustable stocks: On my guns that are adjustable (ARs), I run them two or three positions shorter than their maximum LOP. On my guns that aren't, it never even enters my mind; it's perhaps one of those things that begs to be tinkered with just because it's there. You may not care at all that a gun like the APC isn't adjustable. It just so happens that the G36 with the "K" stock measures the same LOP as my AR, where I like to have it adjusted. I haven't measured the Sig rifles, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case there too. So, for me, the adjustment range on the AR enables needless extension, and it seems non-adjustable stocks on European rifles were designed with the average Joe in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I can't remember if it was touched on yet, but have you considered the MR556, or are you dead-set on something more not-AR?

Yes, I'd say that's about where I'm at. Life's short, I wanna trying new stuff. AR's great, I just don't want a whole safe full of them. That's not a dig on people who do, it's just not what interests me to that degree.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
So, for me, the adjustment range on the AR enables needless extension, and it seems non-adjustable stocks on European rifles were designed with the average Joe in mind.

I definitely agree with the first point, I am no munchkin and with the four position tube on my current AR, I have it adjusted either one or two stops out from fully collapsed.


I stopped in at the shop nearest my house on the way home from work today. They had a Bren 2 MS on the wall, the 11" version. I asked to look at it and what immediately struck me was how light it was, and how well it balanced. Unloaded, mind you, but easily a one-handed affair. I need to shoot one, because I really liked it. I think the only thing I disliked was how stiff the safety was, and that it dug into the edge of my hand with a firing grip and the safety off, but someone probably makes an aftermarket, or I could sand the right side down a bit. The trigger isn't amazing, but it's definitely not bad at all.

I need to shoot some of these rifles.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Any thoughts on the B&T APC556? I know, spendy. If I'm going to play in the $3k+ ballpark, well... hey. With the KDG stock, a new trigger, and whatever else the SCAR "requires" right off the bat, I'm basically in APC556 territory and I can just be done with it.

Anyone with one of these things? Looked at some favorable reviews. The big con seems to be that it's Swiss, and therefore priced accordingly. Parts are crazy expensive, too, but that's the case for the SCAR as well. Not like I expect things to break, but if I want to change things out, it would be something I encounter. On paper, it looks like a lot of the same things the SCAR deals with: short rail space, reciprocating charging handle that interferes with admin functions with an optic mounted. Additionally, it looks like the receiver doesn't have enough clearance with some optic mounts, and early rifles had some issues with the gas plug seizing. The latter seems to have maybe been rectified, but the receiver hasn't changed shape. The stock isn't adjustable for length of pull, so that's a tick in the minus column, but it apparently has a very good trigger. Then again, for maybe less money overall, I'd be into a SCAR and a new trigger.

I've never SBR'ed anything, but it seems like the kind of gun that's screaming to be bought as a pistol and papered, then throw the stock on it once everything clears.

I shot my APC223 and Scar16 side by side last week. Scar has noticeably less muzzle rise. Although I think the Scar trigger is fine, but the APC is very nice- clean break at probably 4lbs.

Is there something specific you want to know? I have LWRC & LMTs as well, I like piston guns!

quote:

Scar has noticeably less muzzle rise.

Does the SCAR have the PWS device on it? That is an effective muzzle device; comparisons made between the two guns' muzzle rise isn't really logical, if one has a performance muzzle device and the other doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

Scar has noticeably less muzzle rise.

Does the SCAR have the PWS device on it? That is an effective muzzle device; comparisons made between the two guns' muzzle rise isn't really logical, if one has a performance muzzle device and the other doesn't.

Valid point, but I also have a muzzle break on my APC. Of note, the APC is the 12” barrel versus the 16” Scar.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
I shot my APC223 and Scar16 side by side last week.
[...]
Is there something specific you want to know?

I guess just general thoughts and whatever comparisons you'd like to make, pros and cons, etc. Weight and handling would be good to hear about. Worth just grabbing one or the other?

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
Scar has noticeably less muzzle rise.

That's something I've definitely heard before. As you touched one, some say a fair bit of it is the PWS brake, which is also counted as a downside with some because, well, it's a brake and you're dealing with all that concussion to the sides of the shooter. But that carrier is heavy, and I've read and heard comments to the effect that even with swapping out the muzzle device for something you can mount a can on, that carrier movement makes for a smooth shooting experience.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
Although I think the Scar trigger is fine, but the APC is very nice- clean break at probably 4lbs.

Yeah, I looked into it a bit, and it's advertised, as I believe, 5.5lbs, but people are reporting it's closer to four. That's pretty sweet, in my book. Other than "it's expensive and parts and accessories are expensive," I'm not really hearing or seeing much negative about the APC. Well, the reciprocating charging handle and the optic mount issue, but that's about it.

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
I like piston guns!

Like you, I like piston rifles, and I'm enamored with this generation of the ACR concept: piston, folding stock, modular, ambi controls, lightweight, extensive use of polymers, and the general space gun vibe.



I have a line on an ACR for a fair price. For what I should be able to reasonably scrape together soon, it might be possible to get an ACR, and a Bren 2, then wait for a good deal on a SCAR 16 should I decide it's entirely necessary. I dunno. It may be that I grab a Bren 2 no matter what, I was damned impressed with the one I handled the other day.

Well, after researching all weekend, I think I'm at least sold on an 11" Bren 2. I'm going down to the local shop tomorrow. If they still have it on the wall, I'm plunking down the credit card. If I end up liking it the way I think I will, I will probably put it on a form 1 when I get sorted in Arizona. Seeing this kinda sealed it for me:

Congrats! Great choice. A couple of worthwhile additions I've found useful:

https://hbindustries.net/store...andguard-10-8-m-lok/

https://hbindustries.net/store...p/cz-bren-2-trigger/

https://hbindustries.net/store...rging-handle-optics/

https://hbindustries.net/store...ed-safety-selectors/

https://a3tactical.com/extende...g-release-cz-bren-2/

https://a3tactical.com/modular...ing-brace-cz-bren-2/

The G36 stock isn't working for me, personally. I always thought the CZ stock options for the Bren were all pretty slick; but hey, why not tinker?

Well, I stopped in and they still had it. I didn't think to ask if it was new or used the other day, and turns out, it's used and they had it priced just under MSRP. Not promising. I asked what they could do for price, and the sales guy started to look up stuff on the computer. Noticed he was wearing an AVI-8 watch and asked about it. We talked watches for a bit, and then he said "this is what I can do." Long story short, I wound up paying about five hundred something less than I thought I would have had to, so I'm happy. Washington state has bullshit gun laws, so when the county finishes their background check, I'll get a call. I'm into the Bren 2 MS for little enough that a SCAR is still a possibility, though at this point, a 17 is starting to make a little more sense to me. We shall see.

Thanks, JonDaddy! I'm definitely going to at least start with the trigger. It isn't bad on it's own, but I've read and heard good things about the HBI trigger. I'm ordering one now. At that price, and being the only thing I see on the market, may as well. What I really feel a need for right now is a folding adapter for the AR buffer tube. This thing comes with an SBA3, and that's handy, but if I could fold it, it would turn it into something I can stow in a backpack. For me, that just seems so ridiculous for a 5.56 weapon that I just have to try it. After that, the handguard is next, no matter what else I decide to do.

KSGM, yeah, I'm glad for options. I actually don't like the factory stock options. All the segmented sections on them look wonky to me. There's options for a Zhukov adapter, ACR adapter, 1913 rail for a skeleton folder, UBR, and a Dan Haga mix of the ACR and Zhukov that looks pretty promising. Some of those are pretty spendy, though. Basically nothing is in stock right now that I can see, though, and I'm hoping I didn't come in at the tail end of "yeah, there's an aftermarket for this gun."

Congrats on the rifle. Love to hear how you like it, and how it does.

If its as butter smooth as my 805 I'm sure you'll be very happy with it ... Mine is also the 11" pistol which I SBR'd, added the retro (original) magwell, the ACR stock, QD mount for my YHM Ti suppressor and a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Congrats on the rifle. Love to hear how you like it, and how it does.

Thanks, Pete! Hoping to pick it up this week, depends on our fucked up state background check system. I've bought a number of guns this past year and haven't taken a one of them to the range. I'm absolutely going to bring some gloves and get this thing smoking hot the first free day I can manage.

Kimberkid, that looks great! How much weight did it add to the rear? The only thing I'm leery of is adding much weight, because it's soooo light as it's currently set up. I want to strongly resist the urge to go loading it up with weight. If it's not that heavy, then that's pretty much exactly what I think I want to do with it, and I've been looking into what I need to do. Dan Haga makes an adapter that's hard to buy because it's rarely in stock, but looks like people don't love it because it requires being screwed to the receiver. Lucky Irishman makes one that removes with just the button the way the factory stocks do, it's cheaper, and it's in stock, but it adds a half inch to the length of pull and people are saying some of them are getting shipped with really ugly finishes on them. Really tempted to set it up basically just like yours, probably with the Lucky Irishman so takedown is easier.

Then again, CZ also makes a 922R compliance kit for SBRing the pistols that includes this:


I'm not overly worried about 922R, but it's a good deal for the factory stock and handguard. At first, I really disliked the look of the factory stocks, but this version is kinda growing on me. Form 1 turnaround times are pretty short, I'm seeing claims of two to five weeks. That's nuts. I think I'm going to paper it if it's as sweet a shooter as people are saying, and which stock I end up going with will be a secondary consideration since there's options. Very excited.

I have the HBI trigger sitting on my desk in front of me, and I just got done talking with and ordering this safety from a hobbyist on Reddit.



Oh, and yes, one of the selling points was that when I pulled the bolt back the first time, it was so smooth and easy I was actually amazed. It's like the carrier rides on ball bearings. Supposedly it shoots that smooth, and I'm looking forward to finding out.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

My A3 brace is bolted on, which I was okay with as it takes out ANY slop or play in the system. I bought an extra nickel finished allen key to undo it in the field and shortened it to fit in the OEM grip in a little plastic baggy.

quote:

Originally posted by JonDaddy82:
My A3 brace is bolted on, which I was okay with as it takes out ANY slop or play in the system. I bought an extra nickel finished allen key to undo it in the field and shortened it to fit in the OEM grip in a little plastic baggy.

Would you mind showing us some pics? I went back a bit and you said you have a fully Gucci'd out 11" version. This is ostensibly what I'm going to do, so I would sure appreciate seeing what you got, and any input you'd like to give on various parts and accessories. I don't even have mine home yet, and I've ordered, let's see... a trigger, a safety, and now this thing after handling a Scorpion with one yesterday. Probably going to get the HBI handguard a little bit down the road. This guy here is using a folding charging handle made by the same guy who makes the safety I'm waiting on, plus a Strike Industries LINK angled QD on the front, and some Slate Black MLOK panels. Kinda dig that whole setup.



Then, of course, extended bolt catch because who doesn't want that, right? Looks like a cleaner design than the Haga offering.


This is already worse than AR's, but I take comfort in the fact that once I've replaced everything, it's not like I can just build another out of the parts I took off it like I did twice already with those. Limited aftermarket may be a saving grace, here.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Kimberkid, that looks great! How much weight did it add to the rear? The only thing I'm leery of is adding much weight, because it's soooo light as it's currently set up. I want to strongly resist the urge to go loading it up with weight. If it's not that heavy, then that's pretty much exactly what I think I want to do with it, and I've been looking into what I need to do. Dan Haga makes an adapter that's hard to buy because it's rarely in stock, but looks like people don't love it because it requires being screwed to the receiver. Lucky Irishman makes one that removes with just the button the way the factory stocks do, it's cheaper, and it's in stock, but it adds a half inch to the length of pull and people are saying some of them are getting shipped with really ugly finishes on them. Really tempted to set it up basically just like yours, probably with the Lucky Irishman so takedown is easier.
<snip>
I have the HBI trigger sitting on my desk in front of me, and I just got done talking with and ordering this safety from a hobbyist on Reddit.

I’m not into weighing range “toys” down with a bunch of gear either, the retro magwell is considerably lighter than the NATO magwell so I shaved some weight off there. I’m not sure what it weighs but being all plastic it’s not much, I know the ACR stock has been adapted to the SCAR 16 & 17, the AK the Bren 805 & Scorpion EVO as well. I would be interested in comparing the weight of my 11” 805 to your 11” gen2 when you get it … personally I’d like to have a gen2 in 7.62x39.
BTW, the Irishman made the ACR adapter for my 805. For the life of me, it seems like I’ve got an ACR stock on something else (other than my ACR) but I can’t think of what.

I’m curious about the safety on your trigger pack … will it not stay on or are you disengaging it on the right side?

Who are you guys using for photo hosting?