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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Interestingly, what drove this idea of Gucci versus simple was a range trip Saturday.
Times and scores about the same.

Much depends on the course of fire. There are instances where one can outperform the other, and others where it doesn't seem to make much difference.
 
Posts: 7500 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of powermad
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I've replaced most of the stock parts with upgraded stuff that works better for me.
Only "Gucci" part is a Sionics NP3 BCG.
Pretty much standardized everything else.
Magpul K2XL grip.
Centurion Arms two stage trigger.
Radian safety selector.
Radian charging handle.
Geissele Maritime bolt catch.

I was trying to run a Romeo5 on one but unless it's a big enough target I'm just flinging guesses at it so I went back with a LPVO.
I'll take the ding for weight gain over being able to see what I'm shooting at these days.
Not like I'm a run n gunner on on a timer so it works out.
It's the only one with a light.
 
Posts: 1273 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Much depends on the course of fire. There are instances where one can outperform the other, and others where it doesn't seem to make much difference.

This. In the case of the weapons compared: say it was dark, and the PEQ-equipped weapon's user has night vision. I think the scores/times are going to change a bit. That would highlight both the laser unit and the optic riser. I always thought the term sounded dumb, but "enablers" do exactly that. If the owner of that weapon doesn't own night vision, then he'd be in gucci territory indeed. There's always going to be someone who can do more than you, with less, and we ought to use that to motivate us to maximize our potential with what we have, before "upgrading". But, this hobby is different for different people; someone who is interested in contemporary military firearms, but doesn't have the freedom to shoot but once a month is very likely going to feed the hobby in between range trips by assessing the potential value of all these trinkets the industry is constantly churning out.

The rifle of mine, that I mentioned earlier, is almost more akin to the second rifle, in your matchup. FSGB, non-floated, GI trigger, no fancy furniture, etc. The foundation doesn't have to be fancy, IMO. The bolt-on stuff is what can give you an edge, in certain situations. That situation probably isn't a square range doing short-range drills under a timer (in most cases). A couple years ago, I made the effort to shoot only iron sights for an entire year. After I had been doing it for a few months, my times were just like everyone else's, in our close range course of fire; that was with ARs and Sig 55x rifles in their factory configurations.

Adding silencers to the mix can, IMO, necessitate some "enhancements", in an effort to mitigate the negative effects.

And there are little personal things too. I have a rubber but pad on the CAR stock, on the rifle I mentioned. It's not because the 5.56 recoil hurts me; it helps the stock grip, if it lands on a buckle on a piece of equipment; your body may not always be in the ideal position. To the negative Nancy passer-by, it may appear I put a pad on the stock, just because I thought it was cool.
 
Posts: 1244 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diablo Blanco
Picture of dking271
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My HD carbine has a Colt 14.5” socom barrel pinned AAC hider, RRA lower & upper, front sight, old school quad rail, surefire light and, an older model Aimpoint. Super simple and eats everything I have ever put through it. My favorite carbine is a little more Gucci, but not by much.


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Posts: 2396 | Location: Middle-TN | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Loswsmith
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Even with my experience of 27+ years as a criminal attorney (defense and prosecution) I can't argue that my JP Enterprises JP-15 isn't a Gucci.


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Posts: 1594 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Depends.
All 4 ARs have CMC triggers, 1 single stage and the others 2 stage. Liked them enough to buy multiples.
All of them have lights attached and Magpul AFG's. That's it though. No DBAL. No night vision. No other things.
I wouldn't say Gucci at all.


I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not.
 
Posts: 3567 | Location: The armpit of Ohio | Registered: August 18, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Experienced Slacker
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PSA freedom carbine, or whatever they were calling their most vanilla model back then, with Holosun optic. I keep a mag of ball ammo handy for it.
The end.
 
Posts: 7150 | Registered: May 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's gucci you have an optic.
I run exactly the minimum set of stuff that I think will get the job done for me. I know from actual experience that I can run an old school carry handled based irons, GI everything at at a certain level. Its not a horribly bad level, but if I add an optic, a trigger, a light a better charging handle, a suppressor etc. etc. I do a much better job in what I want the rifle to do. everything it needs to make me better and not an ounce more.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10375 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
IMO Gucci means spending money for brand name, status, appearance, or form. Function takes a backseat. Gucci firearms are common. One only needs to look at social media and gun forums to find them. SF has boatloads of Gucci gun pictures -- including the ones where people provide artsy pictures, but are silent on how they perform. But show us how it shoots.... <<crickets>>.

None of my ARs are stock or simple. Their component improvements are the results of trial and error against the scorecard or clock, with or against those with better developed shooting skills than me. Including:

- optics. My vision isn't good. Quality glass allows me to shoot more accurately and faster -- up close, at intermediate distances, and near the practical limits of the AR system. Simple static targets, or complex movement between multiple targets.
- I do not put up with mediocre barrels. Wilson Combat for up to 18", and Bartlein or Krieger for 18" and longer.
- I use Wilson Combat single stage triggers because they work for me. I'm faster and more accurate than with stock triggers.

- My ARs have Mlok rails because they work for me.
- I shoot suppressed, with quality suppressors. This means a heavier buffer is better. I have JP silent capture systems on a couple of ARs, and plan to move all lowers that way eventually. The JP system just works better.
- I ditched A4 stocks long ago, because they didn't work for me. Magpul CTR on 16" and shorter carbines, with Magpul PRS on 18" and longer rifles.
- A couple of my match rifles have small ARCA Swiss plates just forward of the magwell. Because some matches require shooting from high tripod positions, and the ARCA clamp system is about as stable as things get.

- Blue Force slings work great for carbines. FTW slings are better for my heavier rifles, which in certain competitions are carried for hours.
- Mid-sized charging handles, because the smaller ones are more challenging to work with optics.
- Atlas bipods, so I can shoot accurately from prone or any number of messed up barrier positions.
- I don't camo paint my ARs. When I rebarrel, I don't cerakote -- brushed stainless is just fine.

I have one Gucci AR15 item -- a camo suppressor cover for my match TBAC suppressor. The camo cover has no function -- solid tan or gray or black would work just fine. But I like the way it looks.



We have very similar preferences.

A few minor differences but the overall premise is identical.
 
Posts: 13831 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:


Interestingly, what drove this idea of Gucci versus simple was a range trip Saturday. One rifle has a CMC trigger, Surefire SOCOM brake, BCM furniture, Geissele rail, PEQ, Surefire light on an Arisaka mount, EoTech on a FAST riser.

Second gun had a stock pistol grip, stock trigger, cheap magpul stock, cheap non floated quad rails, Surefire light and a SIG Romeo 5 optic. It’s a standard FSB M4 configuration.

Times and scores about the same.


A standard AR with a $200 red dot is 90-95% as capable as a more high end AR for many shooting scenarios. The advantages become pronounced on the margins.

I'm shooting a PRS gas gun match in February, if you showed up with a M4 and a red dot, you probably wouldn't hit a single target.

If you showed up at a 3 gun match with that same M4 and a red dot, you could score very well if you know how to shoot the rifle.
 
Posts: 13831 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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I have to say, you fellas sure over analyze stuff.




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36383 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
Three Nails To Protect Us
Picture of Black92LX
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So I just built a Wilson Combat gun and got a little fancy with the silent capture spring.

Now I am building an LBT lower, out with LaRue trigger, WC LPK but adding a Radian safety selector.
The upper and lower are at Mod1 Firearms now getting a little subdued black multicam with a twist pattern on it. Kind of silly really but will be kind of neat to match my LBT pack.

After this I’ll go back to plain Jane’s like all my other ARs if I do anymore.
Only frill will be YHM flash hiders for my suppressor.


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I think that when those dark voices start calling our name in the back of our head we need to remind those voices who we belong to!
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Posts: 24347 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I have to say, you fellas sure over analyze stuff.


Razz

I thought that was the purpose of the thread!
 
Posts: 13831 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I have to say, you fellas sure over analyze stuff.


Razz

I thought that was the purpose of the thread!


I know. Totally on me. I never considered that carbines would actually be used used for carbine work for the sake of discussion. I failed to properly factor, however, to include definitions, and failed to account for the situations requiring the breaching problems that including a barrel mounted shotgun might accomplish making “Gucci” the obvious answer.

Nor did I figure the difference that a Thursday may play over a Saturday, and I didn’t even consider what all may change if it were a leap year.

I will tighten it up the next time I post a thread......

Up next, shotguns are superior to carbines because carbines can’t open doors or shoot bean bags.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36383 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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This one is far from gucci, and it's served me pretty well. It's admittedly got a few upgrades, but they're all pretty basic and utilitarian.

 
Posts: 6577 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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I have 2, they are set up the same, one has a pencil barrel and one is heavy otherwise the same.

Both have
USGI sling
Small rail for light
CMC trigger
QD adapter for can


One has a tritium front sight as it was my work gun for a decade.




"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein

“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

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Posts: 10378 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Loswsmith:
Even with my experience of 27+ years as a criminal attorney (defense and prosecution) I can't argue that my JP Enterprises JP-15 isn't a Gucci.

I had the pleasure of sitting next to John Paul during an extended dinner, in Logan NM just prior to the Team Safari match at JP's Blue Steel Ranch. The 224 Valkyrie was just hitting the market, so that was a big topic at the table. It was interesting to hear JP discuss the differences in opinion with Federal on how the cartridge development should go. If it were up to JP, bullet weights would have been lighter.

Dinner discussions included the rapid growth in 9mm PCCs, the resurgence of the AR10 as a precision platform, managing barrel/chamber heat, recoil spring systems, and precision 22lr uppers. John Paul has a wealth of firearms knowledge and he places a distinct emphasis on function and accuracy. I seriously doubt he considers JP products as "Gucci" -- form over function.

I've had the good fortune of working with a handful of great attorneys so far during my career. Using the concept that Gucci is form over function, they should have minimal issues arguing in court that JP isn't Gucci.
 
Posts: 7500 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of RichardC
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Waiting to vote and post pix until after I win my Springfield Armory Tu Lam's SAINT Victor.


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Posts: 14848 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of powermad
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I have to say, you fellas sure over analyze stuff.


I did have to think about the question a bit before voting.
Mine are not in the simple category as in fresh from the carton, add an optic and go shooting.
 
Posts: 1273 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
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I think the question is a bit misleading. To me, Gucci meant having the top end of what ever kit the situation called for. So an HK 416 with only a US Optics LPVO and shooting nothing by Federal GMM ammo might be the definition of KISS, but definitely Gucci.

Optics and sling are the only two visible upgrades on my two ARs. Both also have two stage triggers installed. I like to stay on the higher end for gear, but I am also not buying the highest price item because I want to be the coolest guy at the range.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24817 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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