I have a CMMG Banshee in 10mm that feeds, fully, my PCC itch. I suppose I need to get it SBR'd. Have not shot it in a long time come to think about it...

Also keep in mind that for a home defense weapon, 9mm will go through multiple sheets of drywall where 5.56 will not.

Tom Gresham tested this with multiple calibers. The videos are free on guntalk.com.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
Also keep in mind that for a home defense weapon, 9mm will go through multiple sheets of drywall where 5.56 will not.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...insulated-walls.308/

https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...tguns-and-walls.310/

These guys did a number of articles about this topic back in the day. These are the first and only ones I could find.

There's a bit of urban myth about how a pistol round won't penetrate walls, but rifle rounds will go through your house, your neighbor's house, and so on down the line until they end up in the next county. I had a guy tell me this as a matter of fact about 5.56 in essentially those words, about a month ago. The articles TBOT guys posted opened a lot of eyes. Pistol rounds penetrate through a lot of layers of drywall, and I swear they did a test or two where pistols out-penetrated an AR by a shocking degree.

I think use whatever the hell you want indoors, just know that with pistol rounds, you're going to get penetration through multiple walls, and with a 5.56, you'll probably get the same plus unpredictable deflection.

I haven't watched yet, but here's my first result from where AUTiger was referencing.

https://www.guntalk.com/video-...und-for-home-defense

The 5.56 rd fragments which is the reason it penetrates less. Ymmv.

Well, and it's also a much lighter bullet traveling at a much higher velocity, which aids in that.

A good PCC is a lot of fun. Even though the Cx4 is a blowback, it is fun. I can feel the BCG move, and the trigger is really mushy, but when the Cylons come, I'm ready.

I’ve never even heard of 90% of the celebrities who annoy the membership here, and since I don’t watch the teevee, I can’t complain about the latest story that the BS media gets obsessed over. But everyone likes to bitch and as this a gun forum, here’s my latest vent.

Low penetration rounds like varmint loads in 223 Remington or even shotgun birdshot are not what soldiers or police officers should rely on, but unless you’ve annoyed the mob or the KGB (or whatever it calls itself today) and they’ve sent a dedicated Terminator-level hit man who must be shot to pieces to stop from wiping you out, what is the likelihood that such loads won’t be effective in discouraging a random home invasion? And if you’re on someone’s list like that and the hit gal doesn’t have enough sense to make the hit somewhere that you don’t have all the tactical advantages, we can at least expect her to be fully and effectively armored against any normal home defense weapon.

It’s fun and interesting to talk about FBI protocols, CNS hits, some forensic pathologist’s pontification, and the like when discussing wound ballistics and stopping someone like the 1986 FBI Miami shootout killer, but in countless videos of defensive shootings, the vast majority of even armed, dedicated robbers turn and flee as fast as their feet will take them when someone just shoots at them—and never mind if they’re hit. Remember the “He blew my arm off!” punk recently?

That doesn’t mean I’m advocating low penetration loads if one’s circumstances make the better stuff a usable option, but I really find it difficult to understand how anyone thinks that a random home invader wouldn’t be discouraged by a couple of blasts of #7 1/2 shot at close range (especially a variation of the Mozambique drill: one to the torso, one to the face) or a half-dozen 55 grain varmint bullets to the chest.

If we believe we might have to defend ourselves and family against a home invader, the first thing we should be thinking about is where our projectiles will go if we need to shoot one. Very often a slight positioning or angle of fire change can make the danger to others significantly less if we miss or are using ammunition like pistol rounds that are designed to penetrate deeply and won’t be stopped even if they hit the target.

And if we can’t or don’t want to rely on low penetration projectiles, answer me this: Assuming our shooting a BG at home (or elsewhere) will then involve some danger to the nearby uninvolved, which weapon poses a greater danger? One like a rifle loaded with serious ammunition that will stop a dedicated attacker 98% of the time with a single good hit, or a gun loaded with much less powerful ammo that might require multiple shots to end the threat? That’s something I never see discussed, and it’s always a puzzle to me.

What’s more, one of the supposed advantages of guns chambered for something like 9mm Luger is that we usually have lots of ammunition available for additional shots if the first ones aren’t effective. The problem with that idea is that sometimes targets shoot back, and we will want to stop those threats as soon as possible—and that ideally means with our first and possibly only shot.

I can’t carry a carbine chambered for a serious cartridge around with me everywhere I go during my daily activities, and therefore I must compromise by carrying a gun loaded with less effective pistol ammunition. At home, though, I don’t suffer from that limitation, and therefore don’t handicap myself that way.

The CX4 was perfect for that show. I love my space guns and for that metric alone, the CX4 ranks high.

Sigfruend, as usual, you bring some other angles to consider. I keep my 16" house AR loaded with a PMAG 40 of the last of my stash of Hornady 75gr TAP. I think that says how I feel about that topic.

I have wanted a CZ Scorpion for years now, and finally this last year, bought one. I'm going to get the ball rolling on papering it this week. That said, I don't see myself loading it up with HST's and keeping it by the bed instead of an AR. I'm sure that like anything, if the need was dire enough, it could used to defend oneself. I won't be putting it in that first line role, however. It will be purely a range toy. Now, if the NFA didn't exist and I could just flip the safety selector to "F," this might be a whole different conversation... or since I'd be expecting an intruder to have similar capability, maybe not.

I think I originally posted in this thread a year ago...still loving my CMMG RDB 9mm AR build. It's still not filling any type of serious defensive role, but it's great fun to shoot on the range and for doing stuff on the pistol-caliber-only bays or close-in steel that I can't shoot with 5.56.

The photo is from a recent postal match stage...not my best work, but it's undeniably faster and easier to make consistent hits with than a handgun. I really love this gun.

Have a MPX that I got the tax certificate for and SBR'd. It also has a suppressor, which is a home defense option. Quiet, Optic, Light, and 10 mags of 30 9mm..

Almost picked up a KelTec Sub 2000 that takes glock mags, for carry in the truck, motorcycle and home. Price was dirt cheap, should have bought it back then, maybe still will.

The KelTec KSG line of bullpup shotguns are really intriging, there are other options too, which JMO make great options for home defense, short, mount an optic and light on rails, btw they just released a KSG410 model....

yeah I'm a fanboy of KelTecs odd firearms...

Link

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:


Almost picked up a KelTec Sub 2000 that takes glock mags, for carry in the truck, motorcycle and home. Price was dirt cheap, should have bought it back then, maybe still will.

I bought a OD green Kel-Tec 9mm Sub2000 back in 2016 and really like it. Takes 30 round Beretta magazines:

I have handguns, a shotgun and an AR for home defense. I can't really think of a niche for a PCC, except for fun at the range (nothing wrong with that). The handgun is for "quick reaction" indoors, the shotgun also for indoors when I have time to get ready, the AR for outdoors in, for example, a riot situation (extremely unlikely). Having shot my AR at an indoor range, the roar (even with "ears" on) is very noticeable, and I'd care even less to fire it in the confines of a much smaller apartment without protection.

I do have a M&P15-22, which could be considered a PCC. Twenty-five rounds of .22LR will certainly put a "hurtin'" on somebody, but there are too many duds with this cartridge to rely on it. This one is for fun and lower-cost practice.

PCCs, PDWs ... yes, the 9mm PCC is going-to-be the way of the future for home defense imho.

A suppressed 147 gr well-designed JHP (like the V Crown or HST or Gold Dot) traveling around 1050 out of a good, reliable, braced 6"+ or better pistol/carbine is going to get the job done for home defense. Especially if the mags are interchangeable with your sidearm.

Unless the bads guys who do a forced entry into your home are up-armored ... which, in that case, a 5.56 carbine is not going-to-do you much good either because they'll probably be the feds ....

Anyways, for the average 2A savvy homeowner with no real military or LEO experience ... imho a suppressed PCC in 9mm is an awesome choice provided it is a very very reliable platform that is chosen ... and not all 9mm PCC platforms are equal.

Or a suppressed PCC in 300 BLK being fed a really good projectile like one of the Leheigh or Maker's offerings.

If there were such a thing, as quiet of a thing, as a No Country For Old Men type shotgun suppressor ... I'd give that serious thought as my first choice on a 500, 590 or 870 maybe.

If I am ever shot, I hope it’s by someone who believes that the 9mm Luger cartridge in any platform is as effective as the 223 Remington or 300 Blackout. I am curious, though, what makes you think this:

quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Pazzesco:
Unless the bads guys who do a forced entry into your home are up-armored ... which, in that case, a 5.56 carbine is not going-to-do you much good either because they'll probably be the feds ....

Personal body armor is readily available and has been used by criminals in the past. I’m only speculating at this point, of course, but I suspect its illegitimate use will continue to increase, especially after the first time a mass killer uses it effectively to continue his rampage and it gets widely reported in the news media and there is a great outcry about its effectiveness.

On the other hand, most body armor in use is the soft variety rated no higher than IIIA. That’s another significant reason why a pistol cartridge long gun is inferior to one that’s chambered for serious rounds. There is at least one Internet video showing a level II (yes, II, not even IIIA) vest stopping a “super hot” Buffalo Bore 9mm +P+ 124 grain bullet that was fired from a carbine in the 1430 fps* velocity range. In contrast, even IIIA soft armor is totally ineffective against any common 223 ammunition. Yes, there is rifle-rated armor that will stop the 223, but it is generally far more expensive and less common.

* That is a velocity that some 357 SIG loads can produce from handguns.

And if someone is convinced that a 9mm carbine is adequate for his defensive needs, great; that may be true. They do offer some advantages such as being more fun to shoot, especially with suppressors. There are, however, some people who are interested in more than that and might appreciate more information to make their decisions.

Added: By way of comparison, here were two wounds made by 9mm hollow point bullets fired from a handgun. Neither shot had any immediate effect on the bad guy despite the arm shot bullet having continued into the chest and perforated a lung. He was able to continue on to kill two FBI agents after taking both shots.








On the other hand, wounds made by 223/5.56. The destroyed femur was reportedly not directly struck by the bullet.








I have others of the 5.56 thigh and arm wounds, but they are probably too gruesome for here. The point of all this is that although pistol bullets do damage and can be effective in stopping threats, there is a vast difference when stepping up to rifle rounds.

At our club's IDPA matches, the optics PCC's usually dominate the top few positions over the assortment of handguns every month.

Is that generally true across the nation?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
At our club's IDPA matches, the optics PCC's usually dominate the top few positions over the assortment of handguns every month.

Is that generally true across the nation?

I would think-so based upon our local and regional matches.

Also, seems like every gun manufacturing company known to man is either fine-tuning an existing PCC offering or coming out with something completely new. I'm hewring every mfg booth at Shot Show is displaying a new or updated 9mm PCC/PDW platform.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If I am ever shot, I hope it’s by someone who believes that the 9mm Luger cartridge in any platform is as effective as the 223 Remington or 300 Blackout. . . . The point of all this is that although pistol bullets do damage and can be effective in stopping threats, there is a vast difference when stepping up to rifle rounds.

Thank you, much appreciated reminder.