Hello all,

It's been a long time since posting, though I stop by and read some threads occasionally. But recently I've gotten back into guns, it goes in waves of sorts. Anyway, it seems in the past few years that pistol-caliber carbines have really become popular. I saw a friend post about his and started asking him about it and he loves it.

I started researching and thought they might be fun and depending on model, a way to train on the AR except cheaper and can shoot indoors. He has the extar and it seems to be the gateway drug of these things and a easy price point to see if I even like them. So, I bought one. I'm waiting on a couple more parts to come in before shooting but I have high hopes.

If that goes well, I'm eyeballing the stribog and psa ak-v. But that's a ways out.

But my other curiosity is the in the realm of home defense. I currently have a glock21 set up for that (with a light of course). There's an interesting split on if a PCC is a good choice for such. I'm leaving out the shotgun (don't like them, tougher to control for all the ladies in the house, not fun to train on, to me, etc)...which leaves the pistol, AR, and PCC, imho.

I know a lot of folks like ARs for this but I keep thinking, goodness those things are loud as crap indoors! Of course it's better to be a little deaf than a little dead, but that's been part of my hesitation on that (plus obtaining the skill, which I have yet to do...really need to find an outdoor range soon). The other thing, being longer, is the aspect of being less maneuverable in tight spaces and such (I have the 6920).

It seems the PCC is kind of a balance between the two...quite small, though bigger than a pistol...but easier/faster to shoot than a pistol with more rounds, but not as effective as a .223.

This makes sense to me for some reason, partly because 9mm subguns used to be the counter-terrorism standard I think. It seemed to change during the war on terror, possibly due to everyone seeing ARs used all over the world, maybe due to a more effective caliber, maybe something else...these are all guesses to me.

What do y'all think of this? Why did the subgun seem to vanish for CT work (our local PD went from MP5s to ARs in the early 2000s like many depts...admittedly the cost might have been a factor, but could be the other things too)? And is the PCC a valid HD gun compared to AR and pistol (I'm generally referring to indoors not outside of course)?

Thanks for reading...

for me at least a Pcc is a 9mm. Being able to shoot 9mm from a rifle is a good thing. It is fun, gives you extended range, little recoil, are accurate with in it effective range.
There are many platforms so finding one that works for you is important.
As far as home defense, It is at least as effective as a pistol in that caliber if you determine that your are comfortable with the platform's reliability. I am not advocating it one way or another.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by howardw:
Why did the subgun seem to vanish for CT work (our local PD went from MP5s to ARs in the early 2000s like many depts...admittedly the cost might have been a factor, but could be the other things too)?

Because even in rifle format, it's still a pistol round. And no matter what type of firearm they're fired from, pistol rounds simply don't have the same terminal effectiveness as rifle rounds, even relatively small caliber rifle rounds like 5.56.

PCCs are fun, and make great range toys. If I needed to rely on one for self defense, I absolutely could. But for LE uses, 99.9% of the time you're going to be better off with a rifle-caliber rifle than a pistol-caliber rifle. And I think that concept carries over to personal defense too.


For your points about the potential benefits of the PCC:

AR-15s in 5.56 already have negligible recoil. Most PCCs will not have significantly less felt recoil than a 5.56 AR, since most PCCs are straight blowback.

There will not be an appreciable difference in muzzle report between a PCC and a 5.56 AR. Both will be "loud as crap indoors". (While one might be - for example - 180 dB and one might be 160 dB, either one of those are dangerously loud. )

As for size, you can generally get a 5.56 AR in the same size package as a PCC (at least until you get down into the micro PCCs).

Pistol ammo might be a tad bit cheaper, but really not enough to matter in the grand scheme of things.


So if it's going to be the similar size, similar recoil, similar price, and similar report as a pistol-caliber platform, you might as well go with the more effective rifle round for your defensive firearm.

Granted, there could be some outlier scenario that might give some additional benefit to the PCC. Like if you're stuck in a blue state with a magazine ban, and are sitting on a pile of pre-ban high capacity Glock 9mm magazines but can't get any high capacity AR magazines. Or if you already have a pistol caliber suppressor, and for whatever reason can't/don't want to invest in a 5.56 suppressor. Or you're already set up to reload for a pistol round and are sitting on 20k rounds of pistol ammo, but don't have any 5.56 and don't want to start stockpiling/reloading in today's wacky ammo market.

I think 9MM is just fine for home defense.

And I'm not alone, the Secret Service thinks they're great for Presidential and Legislator defense.

http://www.shootingrangeindust...gton%20870%20shotgun.

Weapons & Equipment Currently Used by the United States Secret Service
United States Secret Service agents and officers are trained on standard shoulder weapons including the FN P90 submachine gun, the 9mm Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun, and the 12-gauge Remington 870 shotgun.

A PCC is perfect for Home Defense for a lot of reasons. Often they are much smaller in size with less felt recoil. I believe in pairing so if you have a Glock 21 that you are currently running I would get a PCC that takes G21 mags. Which is why I bought a KRISS originally.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
I think 9MM is just fine for home defense.

And I'm not alone, the Secret Service thinks they're great for Presidential and Legislator defense.

http://www.shootingrangeindust...gton%20870%20shotgun.

Weapons & Equipment Currently Used by the United States Secret Service
United States Secret Service agents and officers are trained on standard shoulder weapons including the FN P90 submachine gun, the 9mm Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun, and the 12-gauge Remington 870 shotgun.

That's old information.

Starting in 2016, the USSS began working on replacing their remaining MP5s with... you guessed it... short barreled ARs chambered in 5.56. And most guys had been using ARs already.

The P90 had been phased out even before that.

ive got the Stribog SP9A1 Gen 2 with steel feed lip mags...its been fantastic and a joy to shoot..i did a cpl little upgrades that it needed and its a blast. (pun intended) mrgunsngear posted a link last night for someone that had them for $699 shipped WITH folding brace. screamin good buy.

Rogue,

While I agree with most everything said I will say that while a 9mm PCC is absolutely hearing dangerous loud it is FAR less concussive then a short .223/5.56. Remember small decibel changes make for big differences.

Everything else 100%. Most PCCs recoil MORE in my experience then an AR platform. Is a PCC useless as a defensive weapon, absolutely not….is an .223/.556 a far better option you bet.

Just my experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:


Because even in rifle format, it's still a pistol round. And no matter what type of firearm they're fired from, pistol rounds simply don't have the same terminal effectiveness as rifle rounds, even relatively small caliber rifle rounds like 5.56.

Um ... compare terminal energy of a .357 Magnum versus a 5.56MM from 16" carbine barrels.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/357mag.html
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/2011graphs+/223ME.html ( Yes, it's .223 not 5.56 )

There are other factors in terminal effectiveness than just muzzle energy.

Velocity plays a major factor.

That .357 Magnum is going ~2000fps from a 16" barrel.

The 5.56 is going ~3200fps.

A 9mm is only going ~1500fps.

There's a threshold around 2200-2500 fps above which the terminal effectiveness of a bullet is significantly increased. High velocity (>2500ish fps) rifle cartridges creates significantly greater wounds when they impact a body, through things like hydrostatic shock waves and large temporary stretch cavities, whereas lower velocity (sub-2500ish fps) pistol cartridges do not exhibit the same effects.

Slower pistol rounds poke holes and do damage along the path of the bullet. Faster rifles rounds also poke holes and do damage along the path of the bullet, but in addition, cause further damage in a much wider area away from the bullet's direct path from the rapidly radiating ballistic pressure wave, especially to organs in the chest and abdomen.


And separately, there's the fact that rifle rounds can defeat body armor, whereas pistol rounds - even those fired from a rifle - generally cannot.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Is a PCC useless as a defensive weapon, absolutely not….is an .223/.556 a far better option you bet.

I absolutely agree.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Most PCCs recoil MORE in my experience then an AR platform.

I never really found my PCC to recoil more than an AR15, however until last weekend I had not shot them back to back. I finally did so for 92fstech's "Postal Match" thread in the competitions section. The rifles:

Wilson Combat AR15, 16" somewhat beefy barrel, Vortex 2-10x scope, SOCOM can, 10.5 pounds empty weight, Federal 53 grain Vmax factory ammo. This is a DI gun. I specifically choose ammo with a lighter bullet to keep the recoil down.

Wilson Combat AR9G, 8" barrel, Vortex 1-4x scope, Silencerco Omega can, 7.5 pounds empty weight, Blazer alum 115 grain FMJ factory ammo. This has a blowback action.

Our test was to hit a 3"x5" card from high ready, timed, at 3-5-7-10-15-20-25 yards. To make things a bit more interesting, I shot controlled pairs at the target, both rifles, back to back.

I definitely felt lower recoil with the AR9G than the AR15. My performance was a little faster with the 9mm, too. AR9G first shot average was 1.01 seconds after the buzzer, with a second shot split of .54 seconds. AR15 first shot average was 1.14 seconds after the buzzer, with a second shot split of .58 seconds. Now these aren't huge time differences, but the times were faster with my PCC. I also had better accuracy with my PCC.

I don't know much about anything other than I only bought one to have 30 rounds of 10mm to play with

They are indeed cool!

Something off about a 30 round mag hanging out the bottom of a handgun, but put it in a PCC and its just perfect!

WHen my original intent was to live in Montana I was thinking that a small package of 30 rounds of 10mm would be better against Dangerous Game than 5 rounds of 45-70 from a Lever action rifle. That may just be my inexperience and some rationalization as to why I needed to buy it though. Even if I'm right, I'd still fall into that small minority Rogue was talking about.

If your using a 9mm pistol for home defense then a 9mm PCC will work even better.
I don't notice any more recoil between my CMMG Mk 9 than any of my AR's (10.5"-16").
I would highly suggest you look at the CMMG "Banshee" models with the radial delayed blowback. It DOES reduce the recoil somewhat making it a soft shooter for anyone in the house that may need to use it. You can get it with Glock mags or Colt 32 rd mags (my preference).
I do agree that a short AR pistol will give you better terminal performance but a 9mm HP out of a 5-8" barrel won't be a slouch.

I have a CMMG radially-delayed blowback build with a 16" barrel. I don't use it for home defense, but IMO it would work ok in that capacity if desired.

Mine has slightly lower recoil than a .223 AR, but not as much less as you'd think for a pistol caliber in a platform of like size and weight. I've had straight-blowback PCCs before this one, and actually thought those were at least the equivalent in recoil to my .223 guns, if not actually worse.

The 9mm does have less muzzle blast (although muzzle blast from a 16" AR isn't particularly bad to start with). It is also quieter, as evidenced by the fact that my shot timer often will not pick it up on the range, while it never has that problem with my .223 guns.

Accuracy has never been great with my particular gun. All of my .223s can put up significantly tighter groups. The 9mm is still acceptable for the ranges at which it is deployed, though.

The longer barrel doesn't really help 9mm ballistics much, especially with common defensive loadings. With slow burning powder in my reloads, I get about 200fps more out of the rifle than I do out of a handgun. With Federal HST 147gr, though, I'm only seeing a 24fps gain over a Beretta 92 and 36fps over a P365. In contrast, my pistol-caliber .357 lever-action can see over 600fps gains over like-chambered handguns. My theory is that most of this high-tech defensive ammo is optimized for the shorter barrels that it's likely to be used in. The fast burning, low flash powders can't take advantage of the longer barrel length.

One scenario I could see where a PCC would make an ideal HD weapon would be if you were going to suppress it. A 230gr subsonic .45ACP would be quiet and pack a punch. With a .223, it's going to either be too light and slow, or too fast and loud. You can do some interesting things with subsonic .300 blackout, though.

Personally, my HD gun is still a handgun. It's quick to access, light, easier to retain, easier to maneuver in close quarters and has simple controls. There's no sling to get tangled up in, and I can move more easily around the house with it than I can with the rifle. It lacks the punch of a .223, but also some of the noise and all of the muzzle blast.

If I did decide to go with a long-gun, in my house and my situation, I'd opt for the ol' 870. I am pretty fast with a shotgun...I like the instinctive aim and pointability. Because of the layout of my house, over-penetration is not really a concern. The maximum engagement distance would be about 35 feet, and a load of 00 buck packs a huge punch at that range. The shot pattern is also still going to be plenty tight to keep it all on target.

I have the Ruger PC40 topped with a Romeo5 and set up for Glock mags. Matches perfectly with my G22 and G23. No complaints so far! Looking to get the 9mm version also to go with my G17, just because!

I used to have the Beretta CX4 storm carbine in .45ACP. It was bunny fart loud at the range. People would always stop and ask if it had a suppressor. Basically, a .45ACP out of a 16 inch barrel would be a fine home defense rifle. I got rid of the rifle because it only had 8 round magazines.

Currently, I have a safe full of 9MM carbines. I like that they have 20 and 30 round mags available, which makes it a better home defense platform in my mind, than the .45 storm that only had 8 round mags available.

There is a video a month or two ago of a man getting shot with a 9MM Ruger PC carbine and dropping instantly where he was shot. If you train properly with the PCC, make sure its reliable, and train yourself for 2-3 shots center mass, this pistol caliber rifle WILL get the job done. Caliber wars are stupid.

I've read numerous accounts from overseas that found that the M4 rifle left a lot to be desired. Soldiers were trained to shoot the subject down to the ground. Keep firing until the subject falls down, however many shots that may be. One shot was NOT getting the job done.

My wife has a CMMG Banshee 9mm with 30rnd mag with 124gr HST and RMR set aside for her use when I’m not home. Low weight, soft recoil, SiCo Osprey at the end of it… perfect for her.

I prefer a little more oomph and don’t have the same physical constraints as my wife so I have a Benelli M4 with Federal #00 and Sig Rattler 300Blk with copper 194gr HPs on my side of the room.

More than the weapon choices, we go out once a month and practice drills together.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
Soldiers were trained to shoot the subject down to the ground. Keep firing until the subject falls down, however many shots that may be. One shot was NOT getting the job done.

With all defensive firearms, you should be training to shoot until you stop the threat, whether that requires one round or multiple.

That's not something unique to just the M4 or the 5.56 cartridge.

There's no guarantee of a one shot stop with any cartridge. On the other hand, any cartridge has the potential to cause a one shot stop. Some cartridges are just more likely to stop a threat with fewer rounds than others.

In addition, your example is not really directly applicable to what's being discussed here. Soldiers typically engage at longer ranges than LE or civilian defenders, and rounds lose energy and velocity the further away they get from the shooter, thus reducing effectiveness at longer ranges. Additionally, soldiers are limited to less effective FMJ ammo, while LE and civilian defenders should be utilizing more effective JHP/JSP defensive ammunition. So it's not apples-to-apples here.

A pimped out Ruger PC Charger with a Glock stick mag is currently serving nightstand duty and I think it's a swell choice. I've fired short barreled AR's indoors and without a supressor it's terrible. I would imagine it would be super terrible at 3 AM when I'm half asleep.

quote:

I would imagine it would be super terrible at 3 AM when I'm half asleep.

I agree it would be terrible, but I'd suggest that if you ever had to actually use it, you would no longer be half asleep .