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Picture of jljones
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So, I have been around long enough that I started my career in black nomex and an MP5. During the clan lab days, I ran it suppressed with a suppressor full of Hydrogel.

The reasons why the Subguns went away is multi-fold. I’d wager the biggest reason was that the subgun is a shoulder fired pistol. The PCC falls neatly into that category.

The terminal ballistics required training everyone to deliver two 2 round bursts to be ballistically efficient. It was the standard back then. You fired a minimum of four rounds in an engagement. The MP5 also required you to take the weapon off safe when you got out of the van. (The Navy trigger groups were better, but still not something you would flip on and off like an AR unless you had tremendous hand size).

The AR evolved and we learned that it wouldn’t shoot through houses like we were always told. The reliability was there, and it would do things that the subgun wouldn’t. When clan labs went away in favor of imported Mexican dope, the MP5s went away.

I remember 2 early shootings that the State Police had through windshield glass that cemented the AR for me. (Granted they shot a lot of people with MP5s and it was effective, but less effective through barriers).

It also simplified logistics when I transferred to a larger agency.

If you want to choose a PCC for a defensive weapon, you’ll do fine. It has its pluses and minuses like everything else.

I feel based upon experience, if I want to shoot a pistol caliber, I’ll stick with a pistol. A long Gun will be in a rifle caliber, in an AR platform.




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36387 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:

I've read numerous accounts from overseas that found that the M4 rifle left a lot to be desired. Soldiers were trained to shoot the subject down to the ground. Keep firing until the subject falls down, however many shots that may be. One shot was NOT getting the job done.


Having been down range, I can tell you that folks that were killed with 5.56mm tended to stay dead. Also, the ones that got hit with 7.62 or .50 Cal tended to get hit with multiple shots as well. I even saw a guy survive a Hellfire strike (the secondary explosion got him). But, when I was there, in 07-08 (IRAQ) and 09-10(ASTAN), there was not alot of two way gunfights. Most incidents where IEDs, Snipers (very lose use of the term) and Mortars/Rockets.
I'd also point out that when my guys got into gun fights, we rarely recovered bodies, limiting our ability to do a post mortum and see where the rounds actually struck. Even when we did put a bad guy in the freezer, they didn't let us examine him as we had to return the body to locals for burial IAW the local customs.

If you dig through the internet and find 4ID's AAR PowerPoint from Iraq, they said 9mm wasn't effective either. The slide deck has a picture of an Officer sitting on a stack of money on the last slide.

Also, the 5.56 issue in the GWOT is a many faceted discussion, including the Angle of Attack issue found with M855 (written about in infantry magazine by Glen Dean) especially in the M4, Soldier's actual accuracy (effective vs ineffective hits or just plain misses). Also old TTPs or generational TTPs like "double tapping a downed enemy combatant while you assault through the objective, or putting additional rounds into someone who might be wearing a suicide vest are another reason why more then one round was used. You could also look at soldiers qualification scores vs combat accuracy. How many of the "failure to stops" where actually misses or ineffective hits?

If you want to go further down the military rabbit hole I'd point out that the Army dumped submachineguns for the general purpose forces when they got ride of the M3 grease gun. The M4 carbine was to be it's replacement. Even the SOF guys got the carbine with their M4A1s (the BOIP is dated around 1993, and they where using short barrel AR carbines back to the XM-177 and variants in Vietnam). The new submachineguns that the Army seem to be only going to a limited audience. Open source reporting states the Army purchased only 350 of them with the option to purchase an additional 1,000. it must be noted that there are over 400,000 soldiers in service.

However, I don't think that military usage is particularly relevant to a discussion about using a PCC for home defense. Given the restrictions on round usage, threat sets, logistical considerations, etc. That the military is saddled with or saddles itself with. For conversations like this I'd look at Law Enforcement data, as they do better post shooting documentation and investigation.

One advantage of a PCC for defensive use is it's ability to be used at most Pistol ranges, enabling more year round practice. Most of the places I've been stationed or lived have had an Indoor pistol range available year round. Finding an indoor rifle range generally took more research or traveling. IMHO training and practice improves your chances of winning in a defensive encounter and better a PCC you practice with vs a rifle you don't.

Another advantage of the PCC is reliability in a shorter package. Paul Buffoni of BCM has stated that he will not make carbine barrels below a certain length because they cannot provide the BCM level of reliability. However, the ATF's regulation on minimum barrel length and overall length sort of negates this advantage by restricting both a PCC or Rifle caliber carbine to the same length. But then the Pistol brace opens it back up.

On the sound side, if the report of a rifle caliber carbine deters you from training and practicing, I'd point you towards the PCC. I am not as concerned about the noise during a defensive shooting as at that point I'd prioritize winning the gun fight now vs losing hearing if I survive. Most folks spend more time on the range then they do in gunfights, YMMV.
 
Posts: 4426 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Amurr
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Look, plenty of reasons to argue every way. Obviously at this point an AR pistol/SBR can deliver better terminal ballast at about the same size. If I was a legit door kicker I would never pick a PCC. That being said my main HD weapon is a B&T APC9 with omega 9k. It’s expensive yes. But
1. I really like it. I think it’s cool.
2. I stock 9mm 147gr HST deep around my house and I think it will do what it needs to do heaven forbid I ever have to shoot someone inside my house. I like being able to go from my main EDC to my HD weapon in one caliber I can buy in large quantity and shoot practice rounds for cheap.
3. It’s very low recoil and quite and thus I consider it very usable inside by typical civilian shooter.

Is it the best defensive weapon possible from a pure size/capacity/terminal ballistics standpoint. Absolutely not. Is it still a kick ass home defense gun that will do its job if I do mine. Absolutely!
 
Posts: 2616 | Location: On the shore of Lake Lanier | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by Amurr:
Is it the best defensive weapon possible from a purse size/capacity/terminal ballistics standpoint. Absolutely not.


Personally, none of my purses are large enough to fit either an AR or a PCC...
 
Posts: 30370 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Amurr
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by Amurr:
Is it the best defensive weapon possible from a purse size/capacity/terminal ballistics standpoint. Absolutely not.


Personally, none of my purses are large enough to fit either an AR or a PCC...


LOL clearly you need to start a thread reviewing your purse selection Big Grin

I fixed it!
 
Posts: 2616 | Location: On the shore of Lake Lanier | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like PCC's because I grew up seeing them on TV and in Movies. Let's be honest here. And at the time we were too young to understand the difference between a 9mm PCC and a 5.56 SBR.

For the first decade as a gun owner I didn't buy any because of the SBR issue. As pistol braces because more common I got a Scorpion, then an MPX-K, then a Banshee MK17, and finally an HK SP5. For range use they are fun, especially with binary triggers. I'd like an APC9 Pro in the future, and an SP5K PDW tops the list if I ever see one available at a non-insane price.

Once I am done setting it up, the Banshee will be for HD. My other HD pistols are an M17 Bravo and a P320c MS, so the mag sharing is a plus. With 124+P Gold Dots it will get the job done if ever needed.

I don't expect my home to be invaded by a tac team wearing body armor. But if that was a risk, I have plenty of AR's and shotguns I could keep ready.
 
Posts: 4495 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Grandiosity is a sign
of mental illness
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by Amurr:
Is it the best defensive weapon possible from a purse size/capacity/terminal ballistics standpoint. Absolutely not.


Personally, none of my purses are large enough to fit either an AR or a PCC...


My Sub2K will fit, folded, in my wife's purse. She doesn't really care. Big Grin

But I do like being able to stash it in my backpack and still have lots of room for other stuff.
 
Posts: 2453 | Location: MO | Registered: March 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posting without pants
Picture of KevinCW
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I think one in 357 Sig would be cool.

Not sure it would be better in a defensive situation that a short barrel .556, but I think it would be fun.





Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up."
 
Posts: 33282 | Location: St. Louis MO | Registered: February 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not as lean, not as mean,
Still a Marine
Picture of Gibb
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I own a PCC (MP5 clone) because I carried an MP5-N in the Marines.

Where it excels is in full auto. Whether 3 rounds or 30, the MP5 was very easy to keep them on target. The M16 less so.

Reduce them both to semi only, and that becomes a non-factor giving the advantage to the 5.56 platform.




I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
 
Posts: 3274 | Location: Southern Maine | Registered: February 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
Having been down range, I can tell you that folks that were killed with 5.56mm tended to stay dead.


Thanks to you and jljones for your excellent contributions to this thread.

One thing that became apparent to me long ago was that anecdotes about weaponry in military combat were often fanciful at best. There are still people today who believe that the quilted winter uniforms worn by Chinese soldiers in the Korean War would stop M1 Carbine bullets and that sometimes those soldiers would turn their uniforms into effective armor by soaking them in water that then froze to ice. I heard similarly literally incredible tales from fellow Vietnam veterans before, during, and after my tour there. In some cases I learned how impossible they were only much later. Myths about firearms and ballistics abound and are impossible to kill—as I was reminded in a discussion I had only last week.




7/93
“Cet animal est très méchant, quand on l’attaque il se défend.”
 
Posts: 46406 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Like a party
in your pants
Picture of armored
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I have a couple PCC carbines. I initially bought them for IDPA shooting. I found them fun to shoot but not as my primary home defense weapon.
For that role I choose a 12ga shotgun as my secondary weapon. My primary weapon is a handgun inside the house.
I see no benefit in carrying a pistol caliber in a heavy, larger weapon when I can accomplish the same task with a handgun.
The handgun is easily carried and deployed, Packs about the same energy as the PCC,I can use one hand to hold the pistol and the other to accomplish tasks like gathering and herding family members, opening doors, fending off attackers.I can bring a handgun from holster to target faster than deploying a carbine. I can also reload faster and recover from a malfunction.Its easier for a family member to pick up the handgun and continue a home defense than to grab a PCC they probably are not familiar with.
If fighting from a fortified position I have complete faith in a 12ga to accomplish its task.
 
Posts: 4245 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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quote:
Originally posted by armored:
I see no benefit in carrying a pistol caliber in a heavy, larger weapon when I can accomplish the same task with a handgun.


The PCC is going to be more reliable in most people's hands (negates limp wristing issues and improper grip issues with novice shooters). It will also be more accurate. It will be easier to put accurate fire on target. It is superior to a handgun.

The 9MM PCC is basically the ideal home defense weapon for the average shooter. Ive spent a lot of time at the gun range, and fact is, most people are clueless and untrained. They would be far better off with a PCC in their hands.

Sure, some people on this gun board are enthusiast and can rock out with their Glock out like a pro, but 98% of the shooting public has minimal skills. The PCC is ideal for them. Reliable, more accurate, and faster follow up shots.

The PCC has merit.

I would heavily steer anyone I love towards one as their primary. The Glock in the nightstand should be backup (secondary)


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Posts: 6508 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I just found out that Ruger has brought out an adapter for the PCC that takes P320 magazines.


First I've heard of this. Any more info? I see nothing on the Ruger website.

https://shopruger.com/Mag-Well-Inserts/products/2483/


______________________________________________________
Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
 
Posts: 6508 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Disregard my now deleted post on the Sig mag adapter. I mis-read a post on another forum. My apologies!


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 14533 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dont own a PCC but do own a IMI UZI SMG and a Sterling MK4 SMG that I use for home defense on occasion.Does that count?
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: July 26, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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absent a complete breakdown in society not a chance I would use a class 3 for home defense. Excluding the issues of giving up modern design ideas like places for lights and optics.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10375 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
absent a complete breakdown in society not a chance I would use a class 3 for home defense. Excluding the issues of giving up modern design ideas like places for lights and optics.
You are more than likely right.I have seen over the years both pro and con of this very issue.I have come to the conclusion that if it is a good shoot it should not matter what is used.By the time the news media gets done with you your probably toast.Oh, and lets not forget some shitbag prosecutor that has a hardon for guns.I will take my chances.Take Care.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: July 26, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK for you on the class 3 side of things. But I do have an UZI and there is not a chance on the planet its the best gun for home defense excluding the issues of Class 3.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10375 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A good shoot is a good shoot. A properly registered Class 3 item with tax stamp is 100% legal as long as you follow the law, and in your home you should have the tax stamp on hand and you aren't leaving the state without permission of the BATFE.

So it should be completely legal. Isn't that what the leftists want? Registration and licensing and background checks and fingerprints and gov't approval? How can doing that be "bad"?

That said, I know, it would be spun as badly as they want to spin it "man uses heavily restricted short barrel rifle and a SILENCER to shoot intruder! Local police are investigating with the BATFE to ensure the assault style weapons used were in legal compliance."

Now it will be taken from you during the investigation and getting it back could take a long time and get complicated.

I would not use a registered machine gun though. Too much risk it will be confiscated and tied up for years.
 
Posts: 4495 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My pcc role is filled by an mpx k and is not for home defense.

I personally prefer a semi auto 12 gauge for home defense but would/ could go pcc if necessary.

The merits of the pcc for me are:

Reduced concussion. I've tried dracos for getting rifle rounds as portable as the mpx k and yeah, no thanks. In a vehicle I just might consider clubbing someone before touching off a micro Draco.

Cheap practice. My pcc has controls laid out identically to my carbine but can be shot more due to ammo costs.

Portability. The mpx folded up fits in a regular sized back bag though the weight warrants a quality bag.

Ammo commonality. Find any one that owns multiple guns and see if there is not some 9mm.

Easier to shoot accurately than a traditional handgun. All of the handling characteristics that make carbines easier to hit with apply to pccs.
 
Posts: 438 | Registered: March 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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