This may not be the right place for this but ..

A while back I read (I believe it was here I saw it) that our Puppet President was trying to push a bill through Congress to make it illegal for an ordinary citizen to sell their personal firearms collection at a gun-show, in states where it was allowed ie not California, New York and other nut-job states.

I’m not talking about the un-licensed dealers or individuals just buying and selling guns specifically to make a profit, but guns that individuals have purchased and owned for years.

Did this legislation get passed, or is it something that I could still do if I wanted to?

Not sure. But my neighbor bought two .22 LR rifles at a yard sale yesterday.
Of course, though, this is Wyoming.

PC

There hasn't been any new legislation to that effect.

What you may be thinking of was the recent update by the ATF of the rules regarding their definition of who was "engaged in the business" of being a firearms dealer (and thus subject to dealer licensing), purportedly in order to crack down on unlicensed people who were purchasing guns specifically in order to resell them at gun shows for a profit.

Such activity has always been against the law without a FFL, but the prior wording around what it meant to be "engaged in business" was apparently regarded as a bit too vague.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/f...ness-dealer-firearms


But even this updated rule does not prohibit someone from selling personal guns, or even liquidating an entire personal collection, at a gun show.

And as expected, that updated rule is already facing at least one legal challenge in court by several parties (including several states), and an injunction has been granted in that ongoing case.

In addition, the recent Supreme Court decision overturning the Chevron precedent will also likely have an impact on cases like this, further weaking the ATF's position.

There was never a “loop hole”, but interpersonal transfers are now banned in NM. You are legally required to use an FFL. This would also apply at a gun show.

Kinda a State thing, depends where you are.

Nothing has changed in Texas, plenty of Private sellers at our gun shows, Table holders and Individual walkers. We also have Texas Gun Traders online, Bought a Sub 2000 just a short while ago, Messaged him in the morning when I saw the listing and met up around noon to make the purchase. Still the same ol same ol.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
Kinda a State thing, depends where you are.

This. Federal law doesn't speak to this, at least not now. Hopefully the SCOTUS Chevron decision will force ATF to back off, but congress could (and probably will) do it the next time the lefties get control of both houses. For now though it's a state by state thing. Oregon, similar to New Mexico, has for quite a few years now required that all private transfers go through an FFL whether it's at a gun show or not. That means a background check and IIRC a 4473, so they're not really private. When I bailed out and moved to Idaho 18 months ago I was pleased to find that private transfers can still go under the radar here.

The commie governor, attourney general and democrat controlled legislature in the formerly great state of Michiganistan pushed through legislation to close the 'gun show loophole' that went into effect in February of this year. Right before I decided to spend the $$ to buy an M1 Garand CMP Special in 308 from a private seller I had bought from in the past. You know, the very kind of firearm designed and optomized for concealed carry and drive by shooting....

The new law required me go go to my local cop shop to get a puchase permit and the required background check. I arrived over an hour & a half before the office closed, not enough time I was told in case my background check doesn't get done before closing; and the transaction had to be done in one visit. It was suggested I to try the county or another town, which I decided to try, where I was told I had to go to my own city. The newspaper article I read before trying to get my permit and my city said differently, but it didn't matter. As an aside we had the option of going through an ffl, but neither wanted to do so simply because of the inconvenience and cost.

I left work an hour early the next day to get there before the cut-off time and got my permit within 15 minutes (my background check always comes back in seconds)

Nobody has mentioned this so I'll add.

The so called "Gunshow Loophole" laws are really just gun registration, usually they're hiding full gun registration under these "Gunshow Loophole" or "boyfriend loophole" laws.

Its an incrementalist attack on gun rights and hasn't succeeded at the Federal Level, yet....


of course state laws will vary.

Proposed Rule by ATF

ATF Rule Forces Background Check System into Private Gun Sales

ATF Imposed Death Penalty for Failure to Comply

Another 6:00 am Federal raid goes horribly wrong UPDATE: PG 3 House Judiciary opens formal inquiry into ATF killing

Same deal when they use soft language like universal background checks and such. What They really want is any and all transfers to go through an FFL. Even grandpa giving to grandson. Just makes their database they deny exists even stronger and more complete.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
Nobody has mentioned this so I'll add.

The so called "Gunshow Loophole" laws are really just gun registration, usually they're hiding full gun registration under these "Gunshow Loophole" or "boyfriend loophole" laws.

Its an incrementalist attack on gun rights and hasn't succeeded at the Federal Level, yet....


of course state laws will vary.

expand please how this is registration?


dealers (at least here in VA, we got thru the State Police, who ties into NICS) simply transmit name, some particulars about you (bithday etc, no address) and the number of firearms you are buying (revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, other) and that's it,


it's the same when dealers do private transfers for folks,

there is a serial number etc on the 4473 but none of that is transmitted

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
Nobody has mentioned this so I'll add.

The so called "Gunshow Loophole" laws are really just gun registration, usually they're hiding full gun registration under these "Gunshow Loophole" or "boyfriend loophole" laws.

Its an incrementalist attack on gun rights and hasn't succeeded at the Federal Level, yet....


of course state laws will vary.

expand please how this is registration?


dealers (at least here in VA, we got thru the State Police, who ties into NICS) simply transmit name, some particulars about you (bithday etc, no address) and the number of firearms you are buying (revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, other) and that's it,


it's the same when dealers do private transfers for folks,

there is a serial number etc on the 4473 but none of that is transmitted

Here's an answer from the internet, it's not me this is how it works.


"The glaring problem with universal background checks is they are unenforceable without a mandatory national firearm registry

Without knowing exactly who has the hundreds of millions of privately-owned firearms, it is impossible to control the flow of private sales..."

So hence most "universal background check" or "gunshow loophole laws" are a INCREMENTALIST attack on gun rights leading to gun registration and then confiscation.

Incrementalism is known also as Gradualism.

Here is the definition and an example:

In politics, gradualism is the hypothesis that social change can be achieved in small, discrete increments rather than in abrupt strokes such as revolutions or uprisings.

Gradualism is one of the defining features of political liberalism and reformism.

politics pushes politicians to espouse gradualism.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
Nobody has mentioned this so I'll add.

The so called "Gunshow Loophole" laws are really just gun registration, usually they're hiding full gun registration under these "Gunshow Loophole" or "boyfriend loophole" laws.

Its an incrementalist attack on gun rights and hasn't succeeded at the Federal Level, yet....


of course state laws will vary.

expand please how this is registration?


dealers (at least here in VA, we got thru the State Police, who ties into NICS) simply transmit name, some particulars about you (bithday etc, no address) and the number of firearms you are buying (revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, other) and that's it,


it's the same when dealers do private transfers for folks,

there is a serial number etc on the 4473 but none of that is transmitted

Here's an answer from the internet, it's not me this is how it works.


"The glaring problem with universal background checks is they are unenforceable without a mandatory mandatory national firearm registry national firearm registry. Without knowing exactly who has the hundreds of millions of privately-owned firearms, it is impossible to control the flow of private sales.Apr 10, 202

what registry?

UBC do not work that way, or they do not here in VA, there is a recording of serial numbers, the dealer has to log in and out of his bound book, but there is no transmission of that make, model or serial to the feds, or state,,,

leading to is not what is happening now, and no, even tho as a dealer I have to abide, I do not agree that it is necessary,



so, if you are a state resident , you can buy from a citizen of Va, at a gunshow, and the VSP will run the background, on a seperate form, that I do not think has a serial, make or model on it,

in VA, the VSP will not do an out of state check between 2 individuals, they will send you to a dealer, (who can, perfectally legal) and we, the dealers, still only record what, as in type, not make model serial , when transmitted, but the details are on the 4473,, which no one requests unless there is an issue

you know the ATF goes and checks those books consistently right?

Incrementalism is known also as Gradualism.

Here is the definition and an example:

In politics, gradualism is the hypothesis that social change can be achieved in small, discrete increments rather than in abrupt strokes such as revolutions or uprisings.

Gradualism is one of the defining features of political liberalism and reformism.

politics pushes politicians to espouse gradualism.

Answer me on how this is not an Incrementalist attack on gun rights, instead of straw manning my argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
you know the ATF goes and checks those books consistently right?

Incrementalism is known also as Gradualism.

Here is the definition and an example:

In politics, gradualism is the hypothesis that social change can be achieved in small, discrete increments rather than in abrupt strokes such as revolutions or uprisings.

Gradualism is one of the defining features of political liberalism and reformism.

politics pushes politicians to espouse gradualism.

Answer me on how this is not an Incrementalist attack on gun rights, instead of straw manning my argument.

I get an inspection about every 3 yrs,

they do not leave with anything , other than notes on errors,

and I have a follow up meeting with the inspector when they have complete the inspection,


I am an FFL SOT, been thru quite a few, and do background checks almost daily,

are you a dealer or just someone looking to start an argument?

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Austin228:


are you a dealer or just someone looking to start an argument?

You started this.

You're Straw man arguing again.

"intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."

"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"



How about why is this not an incrementalist/gradual attack on gun rights?

Did you agree or not about without gun registration the law is useless.

If then the law is useless why back it....

oh right you're an FFL, big chief, you have money riding on these background checks.


I didn't come for an argument I made a comment and then you just had to defend gun control.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Austin228,

Hey, uh uh. Too far, Austin. You may be right in the facts of your argument and your interpretation of where things may lead, but cheap, trite swipes like that at other members of this forum mean you lose the argument.

That's uncalled for, way out of line, and it's petty, not to mention unoriginal. lyman has said nothing to you which rates insults.

State your case and be cool.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Hey, uh uh. Too far, Austin. You may be right in the facts of your argument and your interpretation of where things may lead, but cheap, trite swipes like that at other members of this forum mean you lose the argument.

That's uncalled for, way out of line, and it's petty, not to mention unoriginal. lyman has said nothing to you which rates insults.

State your case and be cool.

Sorry para, I let myself get annoyed.

Any buzz word "progressives" use in regards to firearms is another ploy to implement a total ban on private firearms ownership through a patchwork of crazy laws and regulations applied over time, a process called incrementalism.

"Closing the gun show loop-hole" entails finding a way to stop one from doing such things as: handing a rifle at the range to someone else or giving a family member a firearm from their personal collection without going through a background check processed through an FFL. Then the number of FFL holders is shrinking due to harassment and extra scrutiny on federal, state, and local levels depending on where one lives.

"Progressives" are mighty self-centered and subjective when it comes to thinking. They'll ban .50 cal weapons just because no one needs something that big. They'll ban anything that shoots too fast, too slow, too far, not far enough, too silently, or too loudly. When they've got guns all banned, they'll move onto the next thing they're whipped into a frenzy to dislike in their social media feed. I can't fix the stupid in those people. They're working overtime to fix the stupid in me.