quote:

Originally posted by Scott in NCal:
Old school around here. pre-disconnect Ithaca 37 16 gage, in house #5 birdshot is fine. The rifle a mini 14. 40 grain hollow points is a bit more difficult to vet to. The pistol is a 4 inch 38 special 158 grain lead swc. The long guns were chosen partly because wood stocks. If I can get by with smacking some bad guy in the head instead of shooting I would prefer the stock not be a hollow plastic tube. Also if anything like that ever happened and i was assinged a chair at the defendant's table i would prefer the weapon didnt look like i was crusing for a fight. Blued steel and walnut may never look so good. Probably I am wrong about that but I would like my lawyer asking the state's firearms expert about 16 gage ithaca 37 use in crimes.

Birdshot is for birds. The smaller pellets lack mass and do not penetrate adequately to incapacitate.

#4 buck is the smallest recommended for defense against people. Personally I favor #1 buck but it’s hard to find even in 12 gauge. 00 works fine and should be readily availible in 16 gauge.

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
Being former Army I hate to give props to devil dogs but check out Mike Lamb, he has great shotgun videos on you tube.

Honestly, I would say it is what you are most familiar with. If you are former army and an AR is what you have the most training and experience with it will likely be the best choice.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
But what about the "chack-chack?"

I've discussed that with a few LEOs and SWAT officers. In their opinion, the sound of racking a shotgun only tells those who are around shotguns that a pump action shotgun is on the other side of the door. It also tells them that the user of the shotgun didn't have enough experience with the firearm to have a round chambered in the first place. Which likely means an inexperienced and spray-&-pray shooter. In their opinion, the racking sound has little effect on people who don't know shotguns, other than someone on the other side of the door is making a noise with metallic devices.

Most LEOs tell me that when they hear a shotgun being racked, they back off immediately and call backup. Generally SWAT. This usually means the dude with the shotgun has a really, really bad day. One SWAT officer I trained with told me he has been "the first through the door" on three occasions. On two of those entries, he and his partner's suppressed SBR AR-15s dropped the bad guys with double taps to their upper thoracic cavities.

It’s true some might not know the the sound of a shotgun being racked but even among those who do, relying on their reaction to that sound is foolish. Bad guys get a vote in how things play out. Some have heart and are both willing and able to fight.

Most LEOs will back off from an armed suspect and call for back up regardless if they are contained unless there is a compelling reason to engage such as shots fired etc. it has nothing to do with shotguns.

I don’t know who these LEOs and SWAT officers you spoke with are but unlike modern handguns, shotguns are not drop safe and every military and LE organization I’ve been part of, trained, or trained with over the past few decades keeps shotguns chamber empty until ready to deploy. The assertion that not keeping a round in the chamber of a shotgun is the mark of an amateur is false, in fact just the opposite.

Both ARs and shotguns can be slam fired by striking the rear of the stock.

Regarding home defense, both shotguns and ARs can work. Pick the one you have the most training an familiarity with.

If you are a veteran or just shoot your AR most of the time - then an AR. If you are a bird hunter or clay bird shooter, a similar shotgun (pump or auto) to what you shoot is a good choice.

We run both ARs and 870s at work, the biggest issue I see with pump guns is operator error, usually short stroking. So if you don’t use a pump gun for anything else, a semi auto shotgun or an AR might be a better choice.

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott in NCal:
Old school around here. pre-disconnect Ithaca 37 16 gage, in house #5 birdshot is fine. The rifle a mini 14. 40 grain hollow points is a bit more difficult to vet to. The pistol is a 4 inch 38 special 158 grain lead swc. The long guns were chosen partly because wood stocks. If I can get by with smacking some bad guy in the head instead of shooting I would prefer the stock not be a hollow plastic tube. Also if anything like that ever happened and i was assinged a chair at the defendant's table i would prefer the weapon didnt look like i was crusing for a fight. Blued steel and walnut may never look so good. Probably I am wrong about that but I would like my lawyer asking the state's firearms expert about 16 gage ithaca 37 use in crimes.

Birdshot is for birds. The smaller pellets lack mass and do not penetrate adequately to incapacitate.

#4 buck is the smallest recommended for defense against people. Personally I favor #1 buck but it’s hard to find even in 12 gauge. 00 works fine and should be readily availible in 16 gauge.

Just curious, this retired EMT wonders how much time you have spent in ambulances in communities like North Richmond, El Sobrante and San Pablo ?

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
Winchester defender pump upstairs, extended mag, side saddle (it came with it) on the side,

Likewise. I like the old Winchester actions. I don’t deny the positives of any self loading platform in rifle caliber. I’m simply more proficient with the Winchester.

Currently.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott in NCal:
Just curious, this retired EMT wonders how much time you have spent in ambulances in communities like North Richmond, El Sobrante and San Pablo ?

How many dead right there buckshot or slug shooting victims go to the hospital? None. Put a blanket over the bloated corpse, wait for homicide to work the case. EMT doesn't even get called to the scene on the OBVIOUS as shit, this guy is dead cases. Also, bird shot is much more prevalent than buckshot, so its reasonable that an EMT would see bird shot injuries 10 to 1 compared to buckshot, on the scenes that they are even called to.

Buckshot WILL reach the vital organs. Bird shot probably wont reach the vital organs. Bird shot is unacceptable for defensive use on humans, unless the risk of over-penetration in your scenario is just too great, that bird shot is your only option.

I'm a huge ballistics guy, having shot gel, pigs, cars, glass, walls, auto steel, TV's, washers, and anything else fun to shoot. I'm a big proponent of #4 buckshot for defensive use in the home. Based on what I have seen, its the most devastating close combat round on unarmored targets there is.

The new Tavor 12 gauge looks interesting. Gas Operated, 15+1 rounds, 8 lbs. OAL 28.35"



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...1/17/iwi-tavor-ts12/

Been thinking about the Beretta 1301 for HD...anyone?

https://www.luckygunner.com/lo...01-tactical-peoples-

https://www.luckygunner.com/lo...ples-shotgun-part-2/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lo...301-tactical-update/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lo...-tactical-revisited/

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
Been thinking about the Beretta 1301 for HD...anyone?

I think the Beretta 1301 will always be the red headed step child. Is it a good shotgun? Yes. Honestly, I'd spend the extra $200+ and get a Benelli M2 Tactical. Its also a world class shotgun, with a huge aftermarket, and extremely popular. It will always be an in demand shotgun, and will be easy to sell should you need to flip it.

The M2 is the best combat shotgun in the world in my opinion. Its also the best three gun shotgun on the planet. I really think this is one of those cases where you spend the money up front to get a better product.

HD team. If the Presa gets to the perp first, he'll probably want to get shot - she goes for the crotch lol...

Great pic! Love seeing personal protection working k9’s.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
Been thinking about the Beretta 1301 for HD...anyone?

I think the Beretta 1301 will always be the red headed step child. Is it a good shotgun? Yes. Honestly, I'd spend the extra $200+ and get a Benelli M2 Tactical. Its also a world class shotgun, with a huge aftermarket, and extremely popular. It will always be an in demand shotgun, and will be easy to sell should you need to flip it.

The M2 is the best combat shotgun in the world in my opinion. Its also the best three gun shotgun on the planet. I really think this is one of those cases where you spend the money up front to get a better product.

I agree with this. The Beretta is a very good shotgun.

I think the M2 is better.

I have used gas operated shotguns. Now that I have used inertia, I can't see myself ever going back.

What a beautiful dog and YUGE!! I thought the shotgun was a .410!!!!!!

I have wondered about a Remington TAC 14. Very short and still powerful. Hickok 45 had a nice review of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbV0T_hWyNA

TAC 14 ...cool at close range!

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
Great pic! Love seeing personal protection working k9’s.

Thanks, she's well trained and a great companion/home guardian. The 12ga is just for backup lol.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
What a beautiful dog and YUGE!! I thought the shotgun was a .410!!!!!!

Thanks as well, she's 130lb and very active - as Presa's are meant to be.

...and to keep on topic - those shells are #4 buck

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
TAC 14 ...cool at close range!

If I were going to go TAC 14, I’d probably get the 20 GA and try a single point sling, see if punching it out consistently centers it.

A 20 GA TAC with a RDS and light that reliably centered on punch out would be a heck of a HD weapon.

Other than reliability issues (recoil vs. gas) are there specifics about the Benelli M2 that make it twice-the-price better for competition than the Beretta Comp?

I have always kept a shotgun for HD, a Remingtom 870P up until I got Mossberg 590A1 (18.5"). I have no issues with someone keeping an AR but where I have lived a shotgun was fine. I keep it loaded with Federal LE #1 buck. I used to use 00 but I prefer the #1. In the 00 you got 8-9 .33 caliber pellets, in the #1 you get 15-16 .30 caliber pellets. I'll lose the .03 in size for the greater number of wound channels.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
In the 00 you got 8-9 .33 caliber pellets, in the #1 you get 15-16 .30 caliber pellets. I'll lose the .03 in size for the greater number of wound channels.

FYI - Remington makes a 12 pellet 00 load I have been wanting to try.


https://www.aimsurplus.com/pro...TS+5-PK&groupid=4965

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